Ep 42: Positive Parenting Solutions
Andy: This is quite a book here. So, I'm really excited. I got a bunch of pages that I've marked, that have things that I'd be really interested to talk to you about. And so, I wonder if we could talk a little bit about, I think parents today feel really busy and there's so much to do, and a lot of families having both parents working. And what do you think is the answer?
Jane: Well, first of all, let me talk about the busy, overwhelmed parent. And one of the biggest things that parents can learn and understand is that this can be a blessing to work so that you could really get children involved in helping. I was reading the research just last night, I wish I could have found it, where kids used to, when I was raised, I'm 81 years old now. So, I was raised at the time when we walked to school by ourselves even when we were five years old. And this study, where did I read that? Anyway, it was saying how children had a lot more freedom outside the home. We let our kids walk to school, we let them build a playground by themselves.
Andy: Yeah, yeah. Right. Marcella Rutherford, Sociologist.
Jane: But they had less freedom in the home because they were expected to do their chores. They were expected to help out. Where they lived on the farm, it was their job to gather the eggs and to do things from a very young age. But today kids have hardly any freedom outside the home, but the kids, they're being micromanaged inside the home. And the thing is, is that they're not told so much to help and how they can contribute, but they're told to do their homework and how to do their homework and when they do their homework and parents lecture, lecture, lecture.
Jane: And one of the key things of Positive Discipline is first understanding why we do what we do, the, behind what we do. And the main belief Andy, is that children need to feel belonging and they need to feel significant. Now, most people don't understand belonging is easy. We know that for belonging, they need to feel loved, they need to feel unconditional love, but significance is different. And some people think that to help their children feel significant, they give them more love. But to feel significant, what they need is more responsibility. They need to contribute; they need to feel capable. And we often rob our children of developing significance through feeling capable and contributing to their home, to their school, to society because we pamper them. We even say, oh, you do your homework, but you don't have to make your bed, you don't have to clean the bathroom, you don't have...
Andy: Right. Right.
Jane: So, that's one of the main things, is that we have to realize why we're doing what we do and it's for the long range of helping our children develop the social and life skills they need to be happy, successful people in life. And then the other thing is realizing, some people see all of our tools as techniques. They just don't work if you don't understand the principle behind them. And so, a lot of parents and teachers use them to control their children rather than to help their children develop belonging and significance. Huge difference.
Jane: So, back to busy parents. Instead of feeling guilty that you are working outside the home, see this as a great opportunity to get your children involved in really being significant. They are really needed in the home; they're needed to learn responsibility. That's another way to keep it. They need love and they need responsibility, and we're not giving enough children enough responsible because we think, I don't know what we think, that it's child labor if we ask them. Whatever the thinking is, but it's very mixed up.
Jane: And then the other thing is to get children involved in the process. So, this is one of the reasons why we believe in family meetings. So, you sit down, and you have a family meeting and you have some really good information on your website about getting kids involved in doing chores and how important it is. And one of the things that I would just like to add, is how important it is to get the kids involved. We sat down and we had a big meeting about what are all the things that we need to do to keep our house running smoothly. And we brainstormed all the things that everybody needs to do. And then this idea of, okay, which one's can children do, and which ones do parents need to do. And you mention on your website about the chore chart and usually that's rewards, which we say absolutely do not give kids rewards.
Andy: Ah, right, right.
Jane: As you played out, because that takes away from their feeling of feeling significant. They just not doing things for the reward. So, that is very, very bad thing. But to help them create different kinds of chore charts. They get to be creative and there's so many different ways. You even mentioned throwing the dice, which I thought was one of the techniques we use is will have a number, they can throw the dice.
Andy: Sure. Are you talking about having a spinner in your book also that you could spin?
Jane: Right, or having sticks in a can that have chores and they get to pick a stick. But I have to tell you, I want to tell you one of my favorite stories was with my last two when the others were gone and when I was working and traveling even and we'd decided that I would put two chores a day, major chores, on the whiteboard for Mark and two for Mary. And I was really trying careful to be fair and who would get which chore, and they were supposed to do them when they came home from school. She started to complain, it's like, how come Mark gets the easy ones and Mary would say.
Andy: Yeah, right.
Jane: So, finally I just said, well... We had another family meeting and I said, well, what do you think we should do? How can we solve these problems? And they said well, can't you just put four chores on the board of first come first serve. So, I did that and at first, they were racing home to see who could get their first. Then they decided no, doesn't matter. Just take what you get when you get there. But the reason it worked; it was their idea. That is so key to get children involved, and whenever there's a problem, what is the solution? And so, we have these family meetings, which are weekly, which I think is the most important thing that parents could do. One of the most.
Andy: I love that and that's such a cool idea. The chore chart without rewards can become like a record of your contribution that you've made to the family or whatever and reinforce that feeling of significance in a cool way. And this idea of family meetings is really powerful, and I like that it just allows them to contribute. And you mentioned that we accept things when we feel like they're our idea a little bit, and there's a lot of great research on that. Over and over again, it's been shown that it doesn't take much for you to feel like it's your idea, and so I liked in your example, that we're still going to use a whiteboard, I'm still going to write the chores and there's still going to be four of them. They accept all these things as being okay, and all they need to do to feel like it's theirs is choose this one little aspect of how they're written up there or whatever. And it's powerful, it shows the power of that approach.
Jane: Well, exactly. The thing is, is that when they're younger, the chores chart should even be made by them. Just like the wheel of choice should be made by them, where they can draw, they create it. This is one of the reasons why I don't like the fancy ones that you can buy that are so pretty, but I like it when their kids have helped create them and they have drawn the pictures.
Andy: Crayons and... Yeah, right. Can we talk about the idea of kind and firm? And I wonder if you could just talk a little bit about that and how it works and how you do it as a parent?
Jane: See now, the thing that's interesting about that is we keep going back to why we do what we do, and we keep going back to belonging and significance. And so, kind is the belonging and firm is the significance. So, it goes to the idea of connection before correction. And all the brain research has told us that children do better when they feel better.
Jane: One of the most famous quotes in one of my books, my first book, is where did we ever get to the crazy idea that in order to make children do better, first we have to make them feel worse? Now, I want that to sink in. Where did we ever get the crazy idea that in order to make children do better, first we have to make them feel worse? And that is what all punishment is based on. Make you feel bad and humiliate you, whatever, then you'll do better. And the truth is for brain is that people do better when they feel better. And that doesn't mean that they feel better by getting everything they want. It means they feel better because they feel significant. They're using their power in useful ways. So, kind and firm is, I love you, honey, and no, you can't go to the concert tonight.
Jane: Validating feelings is a really great way to make a connection. I know how disappointed it is to you that your uniform isn't clean, and I have faith in you to remember to put it in the laundry in the future. Or I know that you really want to go with your friends right now. Maybe you could get them to come in and help you finish your chores so you can get done sooner. It's just avoiding the put downs, the humiliation, the lectures, let them know I love you and you still need to do what needs to be done.
Andy: Because it's like, it's bad enough already and they already know, you don't have to rub it in that... Right? They already know that this is a lesson they got to learn and supporting them in it and keeping it kind, keeping it positive, and maintaining that connection. And we talked a lot about empathy and just the importance of resonating on the same level as the other person for a second before you try to move them to anything else, I think is important, and is a cool part of your approach here, but also one of the things that really struck me in your book is this idea of mistaken goals. And you have identified a number of these mistaken goals, and I wonder if you could talk a little bit about how you came across those or developed this idea and then how it works?
Jane: Well, Andy, and I can tell you that those mistaken goals is something that Adler discovered and Rudolf Dreikurs, and people used to ask Dreikurs, why do you keep putting children in these boxes? And he said, "I don't keep putting them there, I keep finding them there." So, let's just talk about what they are. It's quite simple, the mistaken goal chart that we have is just so helpful for parents and teachers to remember that there is a belief behind every behavior.
Jane: So, I'm going to come at this a little, do a little background before we get exactly to the mistaken goals, but again, it goes back to the primary goals of belonging and significance. And since that's the primary goal, when children don't believe they have belonging and significance, and it doesn't mean they don't have it, it means they don't believe they have it, and sometimes they don't, but when they don't believe they have belonging and significance, they choose one of four mistaken ways to try and get that belonging and significance. For example... Well, let's just mention, their attention and due power, revenge and giving up, assumed inadequacy. So, some children might believe, I belong only if I get you to pay constant attention to me, so they get into undue attention. Another child believes, I belong only if I'm the boss or at least if I don't let you boss me. I think that's, independence, I know.
Jane: And some, they feel really hurt that they don't belong. And so, they go to revenge. I could at least get even. And some people give up. They think, I can't belong. Leave me alone. I don't even want to try. And I just want to show Andy, how the same behavior can be for any one of these four goals. Let's take the child who doesn't want to do their homework.
Andy: Okay.
Jane: They really bug you and say, oh, I can't, just to get your attention. Another child won't do it because they say, you're not going to tell me what to do. Another child, and this is one that I'm finding so prevalent today. I'm not going to do my homework because I believe my homework is more important to you than I am, and that hurts. So, I'm going to get even, even if it hurts me in the long term, I will not do it because that's a way to hurt you.
Jane: And then there's the child who would say, I really don't believe I can, I just want to give up. And this is because maybe the parent has had too high expectations and they're perfectionists and they just have given up; they don't even try. So, some children will say, I can't, but you know they can, they just want to get your attention, keep you involved. And the other child, says I can't, and they believe it. And so, you do different things depending on what they... So, Andy. I want to give you another visual we love to use. We like to use the iceberg.
Andy: Okay, yeah.
Jane: And the iceberg, at the tip of the iceberg is what we see. That's the behavior that we see. And that's what most people do. Punishment reward deals just with the behavior. In Adlerian psychology, we know that there's something that's deeper. We know that underneath that is the belief behind the behavior. And then at the very bottom, the primary belief is the need for belonging and significance. So, the mistaken goals address the belief, and I want to throw in another thing. This is why Adler and Dreikurs believe that encouragement is the primary way to help children feel belonging and significance, through encouragement. Give them courage. And so, we could call this encouragement model because everything we do in a way is encouraging to help children feel that I belong and that I can be responsible and significant.
Andy: Yeah. Right. So, can you talk a little bit more about four of them, I believe?
Jane: Undue attention.
Andy: Undue attention.
Jane: And you know what? I forgot to mention that we should say that everybody wants attention and there's nothing wrong with that. Some people get attention by serving and doing good things. It's when it becomes undue, because they need to prove their worth instead of knowing they are all worthwhile. The other one is misguided power. And the other thing, there's nothing wrong with power, well, there is, it's how it's used. Power can be a very good thing. We want to help our children use their power in useful ways, but it's misguided power when it gets to the useless side and it's not helping them or anyone else.
Jane: And then the third one is revenge. Where I hurt and so I'm going to hurt back. And the other one is assumed inadequacy or giving up. And when we have our mistaken goal chart, which people can find in the book is, it helps parents know how to, and teachers know how to identify based on how they feel, what happens when they usually intervene, and the very last column is a whole bunch of ideas of how to be encouraging. And so, this is always our goal, is to use tools or methods that are encouraging to children to help feel that sense of belonging and significance.
Andy: Yeah, it's a great chart and I really did like how you started with what you feel. If something that your kid is doing is making you feel this way, then this is probably what's going on, and it makes it so easy, I think, to get into it because sometimes it's hard to see things in other people or to know what's really driving their behavior, but it's easy to know what we feel.
Jane: One of the things I like about this chart too, is how adults, they contribute. When a child's goal is undue attention, maybe it's because you don't have faith, your belief may be, I don't have faith in you to deal with disappointment, or I feel guilty if you aren't happy. And how parents may contribute to misguided power is when they believe I'm in control and you must do what I say, or I believe that telling you what to do and lecturing or punishing when you don't, is the best way to motivate you do better.
Jane: Or for revenge, the adult may give advice without listening to you because I think I'm helping, or I worry about what the neighbors will think more than what you need. And then of course the one for assumed inadequacy. I expect you to live up to my high expectations. I thought it was my job to do things for you. So, we really need to look at what we're doing and what that creates long-term in children, and it's not about guilt. It's about awareness so that we can really be aware of what it is we want long-term for our children. And then what are the things that we need to do to encourage them to develop what we hoped for them.
Andy: I like that a lot.
