Talking To Teens: Expert Tips for Parenting Teenagers

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Andy Earle: You are listening to Talking to Teens, where we speak with leading experts from a variety of disciplines about the art and science of parenting teenagers. I'm your host, Andy Earle.

We're talking today about how to prevent imposter syndrome in our kids.

A lot of people are talking about imposter syndrome in the workplace.

But research is showing that these feelings are a lot more common than we thought in people's everyday lives.

Imposter syndrome is something that the majority of adults will experience at some point.

And for some it can be especially crippling.

So how can we raise kids who aren't affected by this?

Our guest today is Richard Orbé-Austin.

He is a psychologist and writer [00:01:00] and author of three books, including the new book, Your Child's Greatness.

Richard, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. Really excited to have you on Talking to Teens.

Richard Orbé-Austin: My pleasure to be here with you today.

Andy Earle: You have written a number of books at this point, and imposter syndrome is something that has been really interesting to you in your career.

Talk to me about where all this came from. What's the fascination with this topic?

Richard Orbé-Austin: It all started from the first book, own Your Greatness. It came out in 2020. It was a step-by-step guide to overcoming imposter syndrome. Imposter syndrome is a phenomenon that is typically not well understood by many people.

70% of people will experience imposter feelings, but when you hear it, people be gin to think it must be a mental health disorder. It is not. It actually was a term coined by two psychologists in 1978, Clant and Imes, when they were working with a group of highly successful graduate students and faculty members.

And what they found were that even though [00:02:00] these individuals were all very successful, they always kept talking about how they felt they didn't belong, that they were a fraud, that they would be found out. Clant and I'm recognized that this was a common trend. It since has been popularized as imposter syndrome.

And so when we wrote that first book, we wanted people to understand how to overcome it. Because it impacts people's abilities to move forward in work in school. there are ties to mental health challenges when you have Impost syndrome, so high levels of anxiety and depression.

So when we wrote that first book, it was really geared primarily towards adults.

But one of the things that came up as we went to do speaking at college campuses or different institutions, people kept coming up to us and saying, can you write something about how to make sure as a parent I help my child not develop Impost syndrome? And so we gave some thought and said, that's a great idea.

We'd already had a second book in the works, really looking at imposter syndrome in the workplace. we finally had the opportunity to go to our publisher and say, now it's [00:03:00] time to write this book about how to support parents in making sure their children don't develop imposter syndrome.

Andy Earle: You have this quote I love in the book from Terry Real, who we've had on the show. He says, confidence is the ability to see yourself as a flawed individual and still hold yourself in high regard. And you have these two overlapping circle diagrams that you talk about in the book, this actual self and this ideal self.

And there's an area of overlap in between, but there's also separate areas, where your actual self is separate than this ideal self. why is that important and what do you think that we need to understand about that model in terms of self-confidence and imposter syndrome?

Richard Orbé-Austin: People who have imposter syndrome tend to have high levels of perfectionism.

Feeling like the only way they can demonstrate that they belong is if they are perfect. we know no one is perfect, but they hold onto this recognition of the ideal self, and any time they are not perfect, they beat themselves up and [00:04:00] say, now I'm going to be found out.

The whole process, I think of our lives are really being able to make progress toward our ideal selves, right? But none of us are perfect and we all have particular flaws. being able to accept that while also recognizing our strengths, our gifts, our unique talents, really enables us to not only overcome Impost syndrome, but really connect with people and engage in this process of learning.

because ultimately what is learning? it's recognizing there are certain gaps that we don't have. and being humble enough to recognize that and really being open to that process.

Andy Earle: What point does it become unhealthy or too much separation between the actual and ideal self? when does it slip into a problematic area?

Richard Orbé-Austin: So, when you find that there is never a moment where you can actually be proud of your current self, and you're constantly striving to get to that ideal self, the reality is, I think sometimes we believe once we get to that [00:05:00] ideal self, then we'll be good.

A lot of times with people imposter syndrome, they also believe that, okay, once I get to the certain level of achievement, then I'll be fine. What we find is the opposite. The more you achieve, the more you will become increasingly anxious to being found out.

And so when we talk about the tension between the ideal self and the actual self, it's how much is it impacting your ability to function in your present day reality rather than beating yourself up, feeling anxious about not being your ideal self, and recognizing that on one hand, you want to strive for more, but you also want to internalize and be proud of where you currently are and acknowledge your unique gifts, strengths, and talents.

Andy Earle: You also talk in the book about codependence in parenting. Relying on the children for emotional fulfillment approval, sense of purpose. how is codependence related to imposter syndrome or what's the connection there?

Richard Orbé-Austin: When we talk about the origins of imposter syndrome, we oftentimes talk about it coming [00:06:00] from early childhood experiences.

one of those early experiences is growing up in a codependent family dynamic where all your energies should be directed towards pleasing that particular caregiver, parent, whoever it is within the family dynamic that has created that codependent dynamic wherein it feels like anything you do that you can be proud of is really taken away from you because the parent then owns it, right? You do something well, they're like, this shows how great of a parent I am. So you never have an opportunity to develop your own unique identity. And then your whole recognition of how to gain approval is by pleasing others, because that's what you knew from your early childhood experiences. And then from that subsequently, whether you're in school or whether you're going to a workplace, you then tend to have that same dynamic where you feel like the only way you will be accepted because you are an imposter is to please that person in power so that they like you enough to keep you around.

Andy Earle: How might we recognize if there's a little too [00:07:00] much of those codependent, tendencies or feelings in the way that we're interacting with our teen?

Richard Orbé-Austin: If we feel like as a leader all we're constantly doing is wanting to hear approval and not really being open to feedback or constructive criticism, then that's something that we recognize.

If we feel like as an employee, we're overworking solely to get the approval of the boss to the detriment of our own wellbeing. That's a concern as well. When we hear terms like, oh, we're a family in the workplace, we must do things for the family. That is a particular red flag of saying, there might be some codependent dynamics developing.

Right? Because on one hand it sounds good if you say, oh, we're a family. We really feel mostly connected, but it can lead to dysfunctional dynamics like. The only way that I can demonstrate that I'm a good employee is to be able to please the boss, even if it's not related to work. clients have told me they've had bosses who've said, okay, I need you to go do my laundry or get my dry cleaning.

the person feels like, okay, my boss is asking me to do this, so [00:08:00] I should do it because I want to curry approval and I want to be seen as, you know, one of the favored children, if you will.

Andy Earle: We also talk in the book about boundaries and teaching your kids the skills to communicate their boundaries. why is that important in the trajectory in imposter syndrome? And what the parents often not do enough of when it comes to teaching those things?

Richard Orbé-Austin: The reason we wrote this book is not to necessarily tell parents all the things they're doing wrong.

It's really to support them around all the things they're doing well and what they may think about relative to particular areas that may be a gap for them. I give the example I have two daughters, one's 15, one's 13, they're both competitive fencers, and when we talk about boundaries, one of the things we talk about is making sure that when you are in a particular dynamic, whether it's with your coach, whether it's with your teammates, that you recognize what your particular needs are and that they are not violated. you don't want people to treat [00:09:00] you poorly just in the name of doing well in your particular sport .

I've seen fencing, unfortunately, people throwing things, coaches throwing things at their fencers or parents yelling at their fencers, and kicking their fencers, and doing all these crazy things. So it's helping you and helping the child to understand the particular boundaries that are so critical to making sure our particular needs are not violated.

Particularly when we think about competitive sports nowadays, whether it's gymnastics, whether it's fencing, basketball, soccer, parents will tend to feel like I need to hand my child over to their coach to make sure that they are excelling. they may let a lot go because they feel that this person is going to help my child on a path to success. Right? And so they let them get away with certain things that outside of competitive sports, they wouldn't. And as I said, abusing their child in different ways, whether it's emotionally abusing them or physically even abusing them. Parents may feel like, I don't have power in this because I don't want to upset [00:10:00] the coach. Then they may reject my child and tell us, we're gonna lose the opportunity to excel.

Andy Earle: Hmm. Wow. Yeah, that's hard. But then, some of those things are also about questions and conversations around what your values are and

Richard Orbé-Austin: Mm-hmm.

Andy Earle: What's more important. I wonder how you could have that type of a conversation or what would that look like in terms of discussing those values and boundaries with a child.

Richard Orbé-Austin: There's one thing about hard coaching, right? Having someone really get on your child. There's another about abusive behavior.

And that fine line is sometimes crossed. if you don't have that particular conversation with your child, you'll just think it's normal. They'll be like, well, this is how the coach is successful and this is how they've gotten the results that they needed to get. And so why would they change that just for me?

But it's being able to help them to recognize that if they feel something has been crossed, they can be open to talking.

Andy Earle: This links up a lot. with people pleasing and conflict [00:11:00] avoidance, that if something is not okay with you, sometimes you do need to create some conflict and you do need to assert your boundary.

And, if we're operating under this idea that we have to never have any conflict in our life, then we're gonna have a hard time asserting those things. you talk about that in the book. what might some of those ideas be that we could think about?

Richard Orbé-Austin: So when we talk about some of the other ways that imposter syndrome is developed, it's through the roles that children are given early on. there are three primary roles: the smart one, that individual where everyone believes they can do no wrong, academically, intellectually, even though their grades might be comparable to someone else in the family.

So someone takes on that role of a smart one. Then by contrast, there's a hardworking one that even if you've done as well academically as that first child who's been deemed the smart one, you've been told that you're more socially adept and just having to work hard to be successful.

and then a last role is ultimately the survivor. it's that individual [00:12:00] who was neglected growing up, so they weren't given any particular understanding of their role. they weren't the smart one, they weren't the hardworking one. They were just trying to survive. when we talk about this issue of how to support children and being able to deal with some of these challenges, it's really helping them to understand that they don't have one particular role that they need to take up.

They could be the smart one and the hardworking one, and vice versa. It's helping them understand their unique gifts and talents. How do we help them internalize that? It's helping them know that conflict is not bad. sometimes it's needed to get to another stage in a relationship.

And people with imposter syndrome feel like, well, the only way again that I will actually feel that I belong is to please everyone around me to make sure I avoid any kind of conflict. Because if not, I'm gonna be found out.

People are gonna think I'm not smart, people are gonna think I don't belong. And so ultimately they silence themselves in that way. And we [00:13:00] don't want our children to feel silenced because they wanna please others and avoid conflict. And the ways that we model how we actually manage conflict is also critical in helping them to understand that it can be healthy as well.

Andy Earle: It's really powerful what you talk about with these three different. Mentalities that kids can develop. And I wonder if you notice them, like falling into one of those thinking of themself as the smart one more or the hardworking one or really having a strong view of themself in one of those ways.

How could you start offering ideas that they might expand that idea? Or is it about starting to try to gently poke holes in that assumption? Or how would you approach trying to get them to think more broadly about themselves?

Richard Orbé-Austin: one of the things I oftentimes talk about is when you notice your child feeling upset about getting a poor grade, and for them a poor grade might be a B plus, right? And they're really torn up about it and they say, I can't believe that. I'm so stupid. they label themselves. That may be [00:14:00] a sign they believe that they can only be the smart one. And therefore you want to dispel this notion of, I only need to get A's or A pluses. Then you talk about this challenge of, what does it mean to get that B plus? How do you view yourself?

How difficult might it have been for you to do this? What did you learn from this process? Rather than looking solely at the grade, I think is crucial. and then really being able to recognize the fact that on the flip side of it. If you are the hardworking one, really being able to help them identify their unique talents as well, because they may feel like the only way I'm gonna be successful is to work hard because I'm not that smart.

and so we talk about this notion of multiple intelligences and all the different ways that you can demonstrate strengths. you may not be strong in math, but you might be strong in English. always helping them to internalize their unique gifts, I think. consistently having conversations about that, which can be a challenge in this fast-paced environment where we can barely sometimes see our kids 'cause there're in so many activities.[00:15:00]

But taking the time to do that, I think is critical.

Andy Earle: There's a story in the book about Jason, an 11-year-old fencer, he is pretty good at fencing, but the night before his competitions he starts to complain about having an upset stomach. And he's hard to get going on the morning of the fencing tournaments.

He doesn't want to go. He does fine in the tournament, but we keep having this pattern. why was that an important example, and how does that tie into these ideas?

Richard Orbé-Austin: what he is experiencing is what we know as performance anxiety.

a lot of children nowadays, a lot of teenagers nowadays, young adults are dealing with it, but are not necessarily fully being able to acknowledge it because of fear shame or embarrassment. it may not solely be in sports. It can be in music, like if you have a recital and you have performance anxiety. Test taking is a huge performance anxiety area. So really being able, we thought, to help parents recognize that it's not a shame if your child is dealing with [00:16:00] performance anxiety. It's normal.

how do you support them in that and help them recognize that they can overcome it? we thought it was critical relative to all the different areas that we wanted to touch upon on this book, that we talk about that. Because I do think oftentimes it is under reported, and really overlooked when a child might be struggling, and having a hard time.

we say, just fight through it. There are actual strategies to help you overcome performance anxiety so that you don't have to suffer each time you perform.

Andy Earle: Because I could see then also as a kid starting to develop ideas about whatever the activity is that you, I don't like it.

It's not my thing. I don't enjoy it. It's not fun. Because you have all these bad. Feelings associated with every time you're getting ready to go there or do the thing. if they had been nurtured properly or trained to understand those feelings and deal with them in a more productive way leading up to competitions, a kid could have developed a real interest in that thing and been really [00:17:00] successful at it.

So I thought it was really interesting what you're talking about and how helping your kids understand these feelings could shape what conclusion they come to or what path they end up going down with this activity and in their life, which is really interesting.

Richard Orbé-Austin: I oftentimes tell the story. I was a very shy kid growing up and I used to hate speaking in public. anytime I knew I had a public presentation to do, a school presentation. Days, weeks before it, I would feel so bad and nervous. it would be unpleasant. If someone had said, oh yeah, it's just performance anxiety and framed it as such, one, I think I'd have been able to have a different experience of it.

And then two, I would've really been able to understand how to overcome it. And that's what we're really trying to get to: that it's not abnormal to have those feelings, but it is important to name them and then to be able to intervene on them to really support you on the other side of it.

Andy Earle: Just normalizing and putting words on it is really comforting as a kid.

It's like, oh yeah, there's a name for this. Yes, other people [00:18:00] get this too. I'm not exactly this.

Richard Orbé-Austin: Yes, exactly. You're not alone in it. exactly.

Andy Earle: Yeah. And, those skills, whether it's fencing or debate club or whatever it is that they're doing now, those same skills of understanding how to cope with performance anxiety are gonna serve them in whatever they do.

So it's a great opportunity to talk about that and start practicing those.

Richard Orbé-Austin: Yes, definitely.

Andy Earle: Richard, thank you so much for coming on the show today and speaking with us about all of this. it's been really interesting and very helpful. How many books is it now that you're up to? Where could people find out about, the whole collection and everything that you're doing?

Richard Orbé-Austin: Sure. So there are actually three books.

The first one's called Own Your Greatness the second book is called Your Unstoppable Greatness. the third book is, your Child's Greatness. You can pick it up at all major booksellers. So Barnes and Nobles, Amazon, we always talk about supporting independent booksellers as well.

So you can pick it up there if it's not in, and make sure [00:19:00] you have them order it for you and they will get it to you. We're excited to have as many people get their hands on it and really respond to it and tell us what they think about it. I appreciate the opportunity, Andy, to come on and chat with you and your audience.

Andy Earle: We are here with Richard Orbé-Austin talking about how to raise teens who don't suffer from imposter syndrome, and we're not done yet. Here's a look at what's coming up in the second half of the show.

Richard Orbé-Austin: When we think about people dealing with imposter syndrome, one of the things they are always on lookout for is failure. They tend to not take risks because they feel like, oh, if I fail, I'm gonna be exposed as a fraud, and people will find out. And I never forget hearing from an Olympian, the, the late Peter Westbrook, he said: you will lose a lot more in this sport than you will win. It's not just the disappointment of failing, but what have you taken away from that? Being able to give them space to be disappointed and talk about that failure, but then [00:20:00] also being able to process well, what can be done? Being a parent is one of the most humbling experiences one will ever have. Once you become a parent, despite all the books you read, despite all the advice you get, you're gonna make a lot of mistakes. Being much more responsive and empathic towards ourselves as we go on this parenting journey is critical in recognizing what your child may be experiencing.

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