Talking To Teens: Expert Tips for Parenting Teenagers

Introduction to Talking to Teens
---

Andy Earle: You're listening to Talking to Teens, where we speak with leading experts from a variety of disciplines about the art and science of parenting teenagers. I'm your host, Andy Earle.

We're talking today about the science of validation.

How do we make the people in our life feel seen and heard and important?

How do we make people feel like we empathize with what they're going through? And like it's okay for them to feel that way and to talk with us about it?

While validation might be something that we talk about in the popular culture in kind of a loose or flowy way, there is actually a science and a framework behind how you validate somebody.

It was developed by therapists to be used with the most resistant and difficult clients. And it is a set of tools that is also very, very helpful with teenagers.

Introducing Dr. Caroline Fleck
---

Andy Earle: Our guest today is Dr. Caroline Fleck.

She is an expert on Dialectical Behavioral Therapy and the author of the new book, Validation.

Caroline, welcome to the Talking to Teens podcast. Thank you so much for coming on the show today.

Caroline Fleck: Thank you so much for having me.

Andy Earle: Yes. Super excited to speak with you. You have written a book all about validation. Something we talk about a lot on the show.

It seems to be a hot topic right now in communication. Everyone wants to know how to validate people's emotions. Talk to me about where this book came from, how you decided this was a topic to write a book about, and where all the ideas came from.

Caroline Fleck: Totally.

The Science Behind Validation
---

Caroline Fleck: It's so fascinating to me because as I've been promoting this book, I've heard a lot of people say, this is such a hot topic right now. That is one of the reasons I wanted to write this book. Because validation was introduced in psychotherapy as a tool to help folks who weren't responding to basic cognitive behavioral strategies, right?

Where we try and change how someone thinks or change their behavior. In the absence of communicating acceptance, there were just whole groups of folks that we could not treat. Folks with borderline personality disorder, folks with pervasive self harm, suicidality. In the early 90s, this treatment called dialectical behavior therapy was introduced that made a big splash on the scene and brought into the fold this set of validation skills that were originally designed to help therapists validate their patients. With the aim of communicating some degree of acceptance. The hypothesis was, if we do that, maybe folks will be more receptive to change. And it proved to be the case.

Now, me and every other DBT therapist I know uses these skills with everybody we meet. I teach them to my patients. I use them with my patients. This has been the case for 30 years. And yet no one has talked about it really until recently outside of the context of psychotherapy. My clients, even, when I was working with schools or corporations I'd introduce these skills and they'd say, Oh my God, I want to read more.

Where can I learn about this? I can give you an article written for therapists is basically the most we had. It's been very odd kind of being on the sidelines and continuing to see all this talk about reinforcements and punishments and habits and this science that's been around for so long and talked about from every angle.

Yet there hasn't been a lot of attention to what I would consider to be the biggest breakthrough of the last 50 years, which was validation. Yeah. So that's where it came from.

Andy Earle: I love that. It's really specific. It's really actionable. You break down specific strategies. There's this ladder, and there's eight different levels, and it escalates as you walk people up the ladder to the different tactics.

There's all kinds of research in the book. There's so much really interesting stuff in here. This I found fascinating.

Validation in Adolescents
---

Andy Earle: You talk about some research from the University of Oregon looking at adolescents behavior. They're sharing an emotionally upsetting experience with their mothers for the first time. What the researchers found was that when teens don't expect their moms to be validating, they end up talking less and keeping the most meaningful parts of the experience to themselves. Whereas when they expect to be validated, they would share more details. Interesting.

I already have an expectation of how my mom's going to react to this story and I give her a different version depending on how I expect her to.

Caroline Fleck: Who wouldn't, right? If you're going to open up and be vulnerable and someone's going to tell you all the things that you need to change or not do, with regard to that situation, not going to open up, you're going to protect that, right?

That doesn't feel safe. That doesn't feel respectful. I work a lot with adolescents in my practice and it's really funny to me because I'm in Silicon Valley. I have a lot of very high functioning type A parents, who just want to get in there and get out. They've got kids sometimes with serious things going on.

And I'll start working with them and we'll be painting our nails. So they'll be coming into session with a whole bunch of nail supplies or comic books that we're going to talk about. What I'm doing in those moments is I'm trying to meet them where they're at.

I'm using these opportunities to find a way in to begin to validate. No problem solving. No change agenda. Let me just kind of step into your world a little bit. Will you let me in a little bit? And then I kind of expand out from there. The research on adolescence and validation really is fascinating. Because they're like the hardest group of people to get through to in the world.

They are just really hard to influence.

Andy Earle: It makes me think to that it's something we really need to build up over time. We need to get them in the habit of knowing that when they share things with us, we're going to respond in a way that makes them feel supported and validated and get them in the habit of feeling that way when they share things with us so that we'll start getting the more in depth version of the story from now on.

Caroline Fleck: You know what's tricky about that is that it's a moving target. So what was validating to my daughter when she was six? It's no longer validating now that she's 11. She doesn't want to hear, the kind of over the top. She wants to hear, it makes total sense that you're feeling that way.

I'm sure a lot of your friends would feel the same, right? She wants me to validate in terms of her peer group. Not like me. If that makes sense. And so I think that's 1 of the biggest obstacles I see in working with parents and adolescents. Often parents are communicating in a way that worked for the kiddo when they were maybe 6, 7, and 8 and is now actually registering as invalidation to them.

You're placating me. You're talking down to me. That's, why you need a whole repertoire of skills to have that flexibility.

Andy Earle: So it shifts as our kids move into adolescence and beyond? What causes those changes?

Caroline Fleck: Of course, they're individuating. Becoming their own person. They are also associating more with their peers and they want to be respected as an adult.

Practical Validation Techniques
---

Caroline Fleck: And so I definitely talk to my teens in much the same way I would validate an adult. For instance, I use, this is a kind of a higher validation skill, but self disclosure with adolescence, if done well can be really powerful.

So, the kids upset that they failed. And our inclination is to go into well, why don't you prep the morning of? Or should we get a tutor?

Problem solve, problem solve, problem solve. As opposed to this other angle of, Oh, my God. Did I ever tell you about the time I slept through the S. A. T. S.? It was awful. So you come at them with this leveling and some degree of disclosure that shows, I get this.

I see what you're going through. I can relate. And I don't judge you for it. Opening with that message is going to make whatever problem solving you've got up your sleeve so much more effective than if you hit them over the head with it straight out the gate. Which we all want to do because we don't want them to suffer.

None of us do. We want them to feel better. We're trying so hard.

Andy Earle: I found that interesting on self disclosure. You talk about some research in the book from Columbia University, looking at more than 500 mothers and adolescents, found teens who said their mothers consistently used just one validation skill, self disclosure, viewed their moms as being more trustworthy and having more expertise compared to teens whose mothers rarely or never use the skill.

This in turn predicted teens intentions to smoke cigarettes and have sexual intercourse.

Caroline Fleck: And I like this one because it flies in the face of a common I don't know if it's a myth or just an innate fear we have that our kids shouldn't know too much about our emotional world.

We kind of need to keep some distance. We're the adults. And that's true to an extent, right? Like, if you were really into drugs, I don't think you need to get into the details of whatever heroin binge you did once upon a time, but really, looking for opportunities to relate more through your actual experiences.

That is what speaks to people in general. Importantly, if it's an adult talking to an adolescent, you're coming down to their level. You're equalizing in the relationship, which helps break down or challenge that superiority that they are constantly feeling you trying to maintain and that they desperately want to erode.

Andy Earle: Validation. Yes. It's different for teenagers. Really important. But what exactly is validation at its core and what are the different ways that we can, make someone feel validated?

Caroline Fleck: Validation is a way of communicating that you are mindful, you understand, and you empathize with another person's experience, thus considering it valid.

Put simply, you're there, you get it, and you care. That's really what I'm trying to communicate when I validate somebody. They have my attention, I understand emotionally, I understand logically, and I see it as reasonable or valid, whatever it is that they're thinking or feeling. I should actually put a little footnote there, because there's a lot of different things you can validate in a person's experience.

You could validate their emotions. It makes sense that you feel that way. You could validate their thoughts. That's a logical thought pattern. Or you could validate their behavior. That's an effective way of getting your needs met. But you don't have to validate all of it. You just need to find the kernel of truth in another person's experience, right? What's valid and what they're going through? And attend to that.

Often what we do is we're afraid to validate, say, someone's emotions because we don't agree with their behavior or their thoughts. And because we have an innate negativity bias, we are drawn to what we don't like or don't agree with. It takes time and it is a skill to develop the ability to pivot away from the shiny stuff to what you can understand or relate to.

With validation, especially with kids and teens, a lot of what they're doing is stupid and ineffective on all sorts of levels.

I hate to say it, but it's true. I was one. I know this as a fact. Yet the emotions behind those behaviors or thoughts are often very valid, especially given where they're at developmentally. So with validation, I need to find something that I consider valid or reasonable and I need to focus on communicating that.

Does that make sense?

The Validation Ladder
---

Andy Earle: You break the book into different levels, you have this validation ladder and there's 3 major tiers to it, moving from mindfulness up to empathy. Where does that come from? And what are the levels of validation?

Caroline Fleck: Yeah, so the levels are intended and again, remember, this was a skill set that was developed for therapists to be able to communicate validation, acceptance, in some capacity.

When you're dealing with a clinical population, often what you're seeing is very deviant or ineffective behavior, extreme thought distortions. As hard as it is to do this with adolescents, it is that much harder if the person is schizophrenic or with an extreme personality disorder or narcissism. It can be really hard to find the kernel of truth in those situations.

And so we needed a spectrum of skills and ways of getting in there. And so, there's this ladder, it's broken down into mindfulness skills, understanding skills, and empathy skills, and they build off of each other.

At the most basic level, in order to validate, you've got to be paying attention to some degree.

Right. People often doubt that attention can be very validating. It is incredibly validating. So long as you're doing it without judgment or criticism. If I'm flicking someone off as they're presenting their speech, that's not very validating. But if I'm nodding my head and kind of listening, as you are doing beautifully, I might add. You're doing a great job of attending throughout. The way that you're listening to me, I'll just say this. You're smiling big. You, frown your. Eyebrows just a little bit to show, oh, yeah, that's interesting. Right? Nodding along. All of that shows me that you're engaged. I feel on some level seen by you. If I'm sitting across from my, fiercest political opponent, I'm not going to be able to communicate probably much understanding or empathy. I hope I can get there.

I hope I can find that kernel of truth. But I'm going to need to talk it out a little bit. I'm going to need to stay in that conversation a bit to get there. And so those mindfulness skills of just attending in specific ways. We've got two specific ways to do that.

That might be all I can do, right? And I've had many hours in therapy with folks where all I could do was just be mindful in this specific way. From there, if I understand logically why someone might be feeling, thinking, or doing whatever it is they're doing, I can then use those skills.

Okay. I can say, if I were in your shoes, I would do the same. This is logical. Given that you were, bullied all through elementary school, it makes sense that you aren't putting yourself out there now that we've moved to a new district and you're in high school.

It may not be super effective in terms of your goal of making friends. But I understand. That makes sense. That would be what we call contextualizing. And from those understanding skills, if you've got even more in the tank, if you can actually empathize with the other person, then you can use those skills at the very top of the ladder.

And those empathy skills communicate mindfulness and understanding and empathy in one fell swoop. So you can see they kind of build off of each other. I always go with the most powerful skill I can get. If I can immediately empathize and understand and get it, I'll go for that. If I can't, I'm just going to be doing a lot of what you're doing right now.

Again, very effectively. I might add.

Andy Earle: So you're gonna start with the highest you can get and make that your baseline and work your way up from there.

Challenges and Rewards of Validation
---

Andy Earle: What I thought was interesting in the book was you talk about how the higher you go on this ladder, the worse it feels when you miss on your validation or when you get it wrong, the more there's that feeling of, what are you talking about there?

Why does validation sometimes not work?

Caroline Fleck: The feeling is, I think, closest to rejection. Because the higher we go up that ladder, the more of ourselves we're investing or revealing. So, with the empathy skills, there's 3 of them. 1 of which is self disclosing. The other is emoting, which is to actually express what you're feeling in response to what someone said to you.

So, if you start tearing up because they've told you something really upsetting that happened. And they go flat, or cold. That feels like a judgment on us. Like, we're like, oh great, now not only have I strained this relationship, I've made it awkward. And I really don't feel seen now. I feel like they think I'm overdramatic, or I'm making it all about me.

The more we put ourselves out there, the more it's gonna hurt if that's not received well. However, when it does land, it's all the more powerful in those moments, right? If you've really succeeded in validating someone, there's this moment where it genuinely feels like you're looking in a mirror and you see yourself in them.

They see themselves in you. There's just this, I don't have a word for it. We need to come up with a word for it. It's one of the most beautiful poetic experiences that we have access to as humans.

Andy Earle: There are, some different strategies that you talk about.

And, especially with regard to the mindfulness skills, really, listening deeply and attending to what the other person is saying. You talk about the strategies of thinking in your head about a better way to make the person's point and why what they're talking about matters to them. How do you use those?

Caroline Fleck: If you ever watch late night hosts, like the good ones, once you have this framework in mind, this game that you can think about playing, which is what's this person's point? Why does it matter to them? And how can I make their point better? You don't have to actually make the point better for them.

You don't have to say anything. But if you're just listening, trying to check those boxes, you will ask certain types of questions. You will naturally respond with nonverbals in a way that is different from when you're sitting there thinking about your rebuttal or what you're going to say next. And when you watch late night hosts, and folks who interview as a full time job, you can see that they're all playing some version of that game.

They are trying, because their ratings depend on it, to bring out the best from that person. They want the sharpest, most concise version of what this person has to say, and they want to bring out more of the story. They want to keep the person engaged. That is how you want to listen to folks. Less focus on what you're going to say next.

More focus on helping the other person crystallize whatever it is they're trying to say. I used to really struggle when I was first starting with therapy, because people are talking about crap that I don't care about, and they care about it so deeply.

Like, so and so got doxed or my neighbor is now in charge of the party planning committee and I'm not. And I'm just like, I don't care. But once I started flipping it and making this mental game out of trying to figure out why does this matter to this person?

And how could I try and make their point better than they're able to make it right now? Just in my head, I'm thinking, okay, how would I make that more concise? What other information would I need? Then shit got a lot more entertaining.

Andy Earle: It makes your mind more active in the moment. But in a way that's present, rather than thinking about something else.

Caroline Fleck: That's my little hack for attending when you really have no idea what or care what the other person's up to.

Andy Earle: I love that.

Conclusion and Further Resources
---

Andy Earle: Caroline, thank you so much for coming on the show today and speaking with us about this.

It has been very informative and fascinating. I highly encourage people to check out a copy of the book. It's called Validation: The New Approach to Change that Will Transform How You Love, Lead, and Live. Can you talk about where people can go to find out more about what you're doing and follow updates from you?

Caroline Fleck: Yes, so I am on all of the social medias now, Instagram, TikTok, DrCarolineFleck. Um, you can go to my website, DrCarolineFleck. com. And of course you can get the book wherever you get your books. So Amazon, Target, Penguin, you name it, they've got it.

Andy Earle: Very cool. I encourage people to do that and congrats on the book.

Thanks again for coming on the show.

Caroline Fleck: Thank you.

Preview of the Next Episode
---

Andy Earle: We're here with Dr. Caroline Fleck talking about how to make our teenagers feel validated. And we're not done yet. Here's a look at what's coming up in the second half of the show.

Caroline Fleck: Just little open cracked doors. They make a little comment here or a little comment there.

Please, if there's one message I could get out there, it's stop trying to push these conversations when the other person has shut down. Let me tell you, you say that to a kid who has cheated and their eyes are like, you can't see my eyes, but they're very big. It's like, what? I was not expecting that. I think parents put way too much expectation on themselves. Like, I have to be some type of Buddha who can absorb all of this negativity. My advice on that actually is: no.

At some point, the words in the absence of action feels invalidating. And when she lands it, that is the Oprah effect. That is the thing that made us connect with her when she was at her prime. It was her ability to mind read in those moments.

Andy Earle: Invalidating comments said in anger to a child often become the negative self talk that haunts them into adulthood. Want to hear the full interview? Sign up for a subscription today. It's completely affordable, and your membership supports the work we do here at Talking to Teens. You can now sign up directly on Apple Podcasts.

Thanks for listening, and we'll see you next time.