Talking To Teens: Expert Tips for Parenting Teenagers

Introduction to Talking to Teens
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Andy Earle: You're listening to Talking to Teens, where we speak with leading experts from a variety of disciplines about the art and science of parenting teenagers. I'm your host, Andy Earle.

We're talking today about how to get your teenager to do something the first time you ask them.

So often we ask our teens to do something, and we get a lot of pushback, argumentation, and attitude.

How do we get them to treat us with respect, to do things on time, to do their chores, to do their homework, to be up and ready for school on time, to study, to get their college applications done.

Instead of nagging them, is there a way to get them to just do it?

Introducing Paul Sunseri
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Andy Earle: Today on the show we have Paul Sunseri.

He is a clinical psychologist and father of four who treats children and adolescents with serious mental health conditions. He's the developer of Intensive Family Focused Therapy, and he's the author of Gentle Parenting Reimagined. Welcome to the Talking to Teens podcast. Thank you so much for coming on the show today.

Paul Sunseri: Thank you, Andy. Thank you for having me here.

Andy Earle: I am super excited! I've been reading through your book on Gentle Parenting Reimagined and, a lot of your experiences, the things you've done in your life, people you have worked with, things you have seen. And really grounded in some tools and useful tactics that anybody who works with teenagers, I think, would find helpful.

Where did this come from? All the ideas and strategies in this book and what really motivated you to write it all down?

Paul's Early Career and Challenges
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Paul Sunseri: Well, I'm a child and family therapist and psychologist, and I've been working with kids and families for actually over 40 years now. And if it's okay with you, I'll tell you how I got my start in this and where I started to acquire some of the ideas that are in the book.

Andy Earle: Sounds great.

Paul Sunseri: I got my bachelor's degree at UC Davis and when I graduated I needed to find a job in mental health. And where I lived, there was a residential treatment program for young boys between the ages of 8 and 12. For your listeners who don't know, residential treatment is a place where kids go and they live 24 7 because their behavior problems are so extreme that they can't live with their own families.

So the idea was, we work with them, provide them with treatment, and then within about a year or so, get them ready to send back home again to their family. This was in the early 1980s, and I kind of joke that it was like the Wild West of mental health care. Meaning anything goes. And nobody really had any idea what to do with these kids.

Including the people who ran the program. They were such lovely human beings and very well intentioned, but they didn't know really what to do either. So here I was 23 years old around these kids. There were 6 of them living in this house and a regular residential neighborhood.

And occasionally I'd have a coworker, but lots of the time I was by myself. It was pandemonium. These are kids who would do all kinds of really, really difficult, extreme things, the sort of things that most parents are pretty unfamiliar with. They would think nothing of throwing chairs at me and hitting me and biting me.

They would climb up on the roof and then jump off. Other really extreme things like they would break a light bulb and swallow the glass. I mean, this was just stuff at my age, I'd never encountered before and nothing in my undergraduate program even remotely prepared me for any of this. So here I was thrust into this environment and it was like, go. See what you can do. And I was with these kids from the time they woke up in the morning to the time they went to bed.

So I was kind of a surrogate parent. My job title was counseling. I don't think I did any counseling of any kind. It was all behavior change. Kids would do something, I would try to respond to it in a way that I thought was going to change that behavior, help that kid in some way, improve the behavior somehow. And almost everything I did simply did not work at all.

It was a total bust. Somebody threw a chair at me, I would try to say and do something that I thought would make it less likely I'd have a chair thrown at me a second time. No dice. Nothing. But the weird thing about it was because behavior was so frequent and pervasive, and I was there for such a large amount of time, through trial and error, most of the things I attempted did not work, but every so often I would stumble on something that did.

It was like a miracle and I thought, that's really cool. I paid attention to that. I put it in my toolbox. And that then put me in a position of trying other things that mostly didn't work. But again and again, over time, there are a lot of things that really work with super hard kids.

Effective Strategies for Oppositional Kids
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Paul Sunseri: That's why I wrote the book, is because there are definitely things that are effective with highly oppositional kids.

The problem is most parents are unaware of them. They've never been taught them, they've never come across them. I don't think there's another book like mine that contains so much straight up, here's what you do when this happens. And so that's why I wrote it. I think this could be really useful for parents, not just parents of the massively hard kids that I worked with, but parents of kids who are maybe still oppositional and problematic, but not nearly to that same degree.

The Concept of Gentle Parenting
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Andy Earle: Why gentle parenting or what's the tie in there? And is gentle parenting really even effective with such hard kids?

Paul Sunseri: I don't think gentle parenting in its traditional form is at all effective with hard kids. So most of your listeners probably know gentle parenting.

It's just a style of parenting. It's been around for about 10 years. And it really places a strong emphasis on parents having a great relationship with their kids. It's very relationship oriented. And it leans into kids. It's all about paying attention to them, trying to understand them.

And unlike previous generations of parenting, if a kid misbehaved in some way, there was less of an emphasis on punishment and consequences and more of an emphasis on leaning in and empathizing with the kid and trying to collaborate. Which is great. It's just, it's a wonderful idea. And I think most of gentle parenting is really effective with easier to parent kids. Like, your kids that are just naturally more compliant. Kids that are maybe not so strong willed.

Just the kind of kids that most of us wish we get. When you think about being a parent, you don't think about getting a hard kid. You think about getting an easier kid. So, I love gentle parenting and I believe my style both as a psychologist working with families and as a father working with my own four daughters, I always lean towards gentle, right?

I think kids respond the best to parents who are loving and kind and reasonable. Even with really oppositional difficult kids, they don't act out all the time. They don't misbehave 24 seven. There are plenty of opportunities for parents to be warm, gentle, and kind.

What I advocate for is a balance between gentle, and at the same time, knowing when to set a limit and how to make sure that limit is followed. Being kind, loving, and warm. But also being able to say no in a reasonable way and make sure that you have some way of backing up the no.

So for example, a parent might say, it's really my expectation that you keep up on your homework assignments. That you turn your assignments in on time. But if a kid has 20 missing assignments and rarely does their homework, you can set that limit. This is my expectation. But how do you get them to actually do it?

That's the problem. And there's an entire chapter of the book written just on getting kids to do their homework. You got to set limits with your kids because all kids need limits, but you also know how to make those limits. Enforceable and the strategies that actually work with kids to get them to do what you want them to do.

The Importance of Vibe in Parenting
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Andy Earle: And one of the strategies that we often get wrong is having the wrong vibe. You write in the book about the importance of the vibe when we're interacting with our kid, when we're asking them to do something. Talk to me about that. How do we have the right vibe? What's the wrong vibe? And how do we make sure that we're putting off those good energies?

Paul Sunseri: That's a great question. I'll start with the vibe that I don't think works very well, but it's one that parents easily fall into when they get frustrated. What doesn't work, I think, is to bark at your kids, to raise your voice with kids, to be super harsh with them. What wouldn't work with any kid is to say, get in your room and do your homework. Because I said so.

You could see parents going to that after they've tried everything they can think of to get their kid to start doing their homework. But I know from my work with them that when you speak to a kid that way, you almost always get more resistance. It's like, no. I don't want to. Leave me alone.

I think when you light up with kids and become forceful with them, it's counterproductive and the kid doesn't like it. Parents generally don't like having to raise their voice with kids either. So the vibe you want to create, and it takes a little practice, but I think what works best is always matter of fact.

And I really encourage parents to never raise their voice with kids. When I tell parents this the first time, they think I'm nuts. Like that's impossible. But it can be done. It just takes practice. So matter of fact is, Hey, I'm not going to fight with you about your homework.

You know, it needs to get done. This is just an expectation in our family. So you're either going to do it or you won't. And if you don't though, here are the penalties or the consequences that you're going to get. And even then you're not going to get any of your privileges until you get your homework done.

So I didn't raise my voice. I think that sounded pretty matter of fact. But there's no missing my intention in that conversation, which is you need to do your homework. And I'm not going to fight with you about it. And you also, it takes practice again, but if you can appear confident. Relaxed.

No nonsense. Unapologetic. Like, why would you sound apologetic for asking a kid to do their homework? But sometimes parents will fall into that trap too. Or what they'll do is they'll start to give all the reasons why a kid should do their homework. Well, if you don't do your homework, you'll fail your classes.

If you fail your classes, you're not going to graduate from high school. If you don't graduate from high school, you're not going to college. But I just think you can skip over all of that stuff, which is homework's a responsibility.

It's one of many of life. And you need to do yours. And here's what happens if you do. And here's what happens if you don't. So the vibe is confident, self assured. But again, very matter of fact.

Andy Earle: And it's also assuming that the kid can do it if they really wanted to, or if they're really motivated to get their homework done. So often we give our kids a pass because they're not good at this or this is hard for them or this just isn't their thing...

Paul Sunseri: Well, it may not be their thing, but they still need to do it. I mean, let's be honest who loves the thought of sitting down doing their algebra assignments.

I certainly didn't when I was that age. And I don't think anybody does. Maybe some kids love algebra. I shouldn't say that. But, um, yes, always assume your kid is capable of doing things. Set your bar of expectations really high. Don't set them too low. And you'll hear all kinds of things from kids why they're not doing their homework.

It's too hard. The teacher didn't explain it very well. I'm not good at math. Class is boring. I mean, it was just go on and on like that. But again, unless you've ruled out some kind of learning disability, or attention deficit disorder, and even in those instances, kids still need to do their homework.

If it's not a learning problem, then what you're left with by default is a motivation problem. Kids will tell you this all the time. I hear it so commonly in the last 10 years. I think it's something that's going around among the adolescent community. Well, I'm not motivated to do school. As if somehow it's everybody else's responsibility to motivate them.

It really isn't. Lots of things you have to do, even though you're not motivated.

Keep your expectations high. Assume they can do it. Communicate that to your kid. If they say, well, I don't know how to do algebra, say, well, I have every confidence you'll be able to figure it out.

You can ask your teacher for extra help. You can text a classmate who's good in algebra and ask them how to help. You can go on this thing called Google, which leads you to YouTube, which tells you how to do almost everything in life. I'm confident you can figure this out.

Just leave them to the task without overly involving yourself in homework and becoming their one on one tutor, which almost never works very well with most kids.

It just leads to fighting generally.

Handling Anger and Red Herrings
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Andy Earle: So you talk about not raising your voice, staying cool, keeping that cool vibe, and you also talk in the book about what to do if your child starts raising their voice or you start getting anger directed towards you, which is actually not to engage with that.

And you actually write that leaning in to this type of behavior actually makes the behavior worse, not better. By allowing your child to keep and hold your attention during these upsets, you allow yourself to become the target of their anger. You're inadvertently reinforcing the very behavior you don't like.

Paul Sunseri: Yeah, let me explain that.

So what happens most commonly when kids get angry with their parents is their parents will start mixing it up with them. You can't talk to me that way. I need you to do X, Y, and Z. Your brother does their chores when I ask them to. Don't be disrespectful. The kid is mad and they're starting to elevate.

And then what the parent does is they then trade off back and forth comments with each other. So they start to argue with their kid. There's a process that I describe in the book, which I call mirroring and matching.

It's when we mirror each other's emotional states, and we match their volume, pace, and intensity. It's an unconscious process. If you and I were starting to disagree about something and one of us starts to elevate, there's a good chance that the other person is going to start to elevate in a very similar way.

We tend to level up with each other in these arguments. If the kid raises their voice, the parents will match them. If the parents elevate beyond the kid, the kid will then elevate to match their parents intensity. And that's what leads ultimately to everybody screaming at each other.

What I argue for is what I call going low and slow. You speak a little bit more slowly and the volume of your voice is quieter than theirs. I also recommend that you don't interrupt kids. They'll interrupt you a ton. And there's all kinds of strategies for dealing with that.

But don't interrupt them. So if you can keep your intensity low, even if theirs starts to rise, that has a natural way of bringing it back down. But as soon as you start to match them exactly, everybody's off to the races. So, highly recommend parents get really good at this to not match their kids level of intensity.

Andy Earle: They like bait you into the argument. You talk throughout the book about red herrings, how kids will throw these juicy things at you to really just engage you and get you to kind of chase one of these things that they're talking about. How do you identify red herrings and avoid getting thrown off track by them?

Paul Sunseri: Well, red herrings are super fun. Because once you know what it is, and you can spot them, you can't ever unsee them again in your life. Once you know what a red herring is, you will never not see a red herring. So I'll describe it to you. When a kid is trying intentionally In a discussion to knock the parent off course to distract them, or to make them upset, or to get out of doing something that the parent is asking them to do.

They'll start to throw a red herring. So I'll give you an example. If a parent says to a kid, hey, the dishwasher is full. Could you please empty it? The kid will go, it's not my turn. The parent will respond by saying something like, your brother did it last week. The kid will say, that wasn't last week. That was the week before. The parent will say, no, I don't think it was. But I do think it's your turn. The kid will say, why do I have to do everything around here? So everything in those examples of the kid speaking was a red herring.

You know, it's not my turn. Why do I have to do everything? The dishwasher is not really full. It doesn't need to be emptied. I mean, those are all red herrings. And again, the problem that parents usually have in those situations is they respond to the red herrings as if you're talking to a rational human being in discussion.

So they say it's not my turn. Every parent is going to say something like it is your turn. And then the kid will throw out another red herring parent will respond and then you get another red herring and you get so far off track from emptying the dishwasher that that's what leads to frustration.

The parent almost always gets angry in that situation. And they'll end it was something like, just empty the darn dishwasher at the top of their lungs, and maybe the kid will do it and maybe they won't.

With red herrings, the important thing is you never bite on a red herring because the agenda is to lead you astray in this conversation. The words that I think work best to avoid biting onto a red herring are nonetheless, regardless, in any case, my favorite is, be that as it may. So, you say to him, hey, I'd love if you could empty the dishwasher, please.

And the kid says, it's not my turn. Well, nonetheless, still needs to be empty, please. Well, I don't understand. That's not fair. Be that as it may, dishwasher is full, I need you to empty it, please. So you can see what those words do. It sidesteps the entire red herring argument and brings you right back to the essential point, which is that dishwasher needs to be done, please.

So, you do a few. Nonetheless, regardless, in any case, kids eventually catch on to what you're doing. And it frustrates them because you have thwarted their attempts at distracting you. And again, I think when you ask kids to do something, you pretty much expect them to do it, right? You don't ask them to go out back and plow 40 acres of land, although some kids do actually do that.

You're not asking for the moon, you're just asking them to empty the dishwasher. And what you don't want is a lot of pushback or arguing which causes conflict, and then everybody elevates, and then you have families who yell at each other. It should be a relatively easy task to get a kid to do anything you ask them to do, whether it's chores, homework, being respectful, being kind, getting off a screen.

All that kind of stuff. Now that your listeners know what a red herring is, just have a field day with this. Because they're so entertaining. And every once in a while, just for fun, I'll bite on a red herring to make a point. But it's better just to sidestep them all together.

The Power of Asking, Not Commanding
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Andy Earle: You talk about getting kids to do things that you ask them to do.

I found it interesting in the book, you have a whole discussion about switching from commands to asks. Really just about the wording of how it's coming across when you're engaging with your child to do something that you would like them to do. Walk me through that.

What's the difference? And where should we fall on that spectrum?

Paul Sunseri: So, I'll talk about ask not command. I'll define that and give examples. At the end I'll talk about what you actually can do to get a kid to do the things you want them to do. Ask, not command kind of sets the tone.

It increases the probability that a kid will do what's asked, but it won't guarantee it. I'll talk about how to get them to actually do it. But ask, not command is just, it's a way of phrasing things with kids once they reach the age of 11, 12, 13. Once they become preteens or teenagers. They become very sensitive to language.

So, for example, if you've got a five year old, you can be very direct in your language to them. You could say something like, Please pick up your shoes and take them to your bedroom and put them away. It sounds like a command, almost. It's a direct order. Now, you can soften how you say it, but it's still a very direct thing to do.

Clear plate from the table and put it in the sink extremely direct. So, it sounds like a command. And the thing about little kids is they're not really sensitive to power differentials yet. They're not really invested in saving face the way an older kid is. So you can give commands to little kids, but when you give commands to older kids, especially teenagers, they tend to resist them.

And there's a natural evolution that takes place in just about every family away from commands into what I call asks. You're still asking them to do something, but the way you phrase it appears much less like an order, and more something that's a peer to peer. So, I might say something like, Hey, when you're done gaming this afternoon, I'd love it please if you could spend some time in your bedroom straightening it up.

Thanks for taking care of that. So there's a structure to that. When you're done, So you're not telling them to do it right away, but when you're done, I would love it, please, which to me sounds like a super nice way to ask somebody to do anything. If you could X. And I always thank them in advance for doing it.

It's like, why would you thank somebody for doing something they haven't done? It just seems to work better. It's almost like they owe you something. Cause they've already gotten that thank you. It's it's a subtle thing, but I do think there was a component of that.

This is how adults talk to each other, like, if your fiance was in the kitchen and you were sitting on the couch, you wouldn't turn your head and say, bring me a beer. She's going to go, who are you talking to? You would say, hey, would you mind when you're up, when you come back, could you bring me something to drink?

I'm sure your fiance is lovely and she'll say, okay. This is what most people do. So that's how adults talk to each other. We don't order each other to do things. We ask in a way that is designed to treat the person with respect and treat them as an autonomous human being who has say so in things.

So, yes, you can give commands to young kids, but if you're a parent who is slow to evolve in the direction of an ask, you're going to get yourself in trouble. When you say to a teenager, set the table, that's an order. They're going to push back. They might be passive pushing back. They might say, okay.

And then not budge, right? But there's a loss of face when you respond to an order. There's a clear hierarchy. People who are in charge and power give orders to people who aren't. That's what the military is based on. But with human beings outside of the military, nobody really likes that.

So we had a girl in a family session. She was around 13 years old. She brought up in family therapy, an issue. She said, dad, I want to talk to you about something. And the dad was super nice. And he said, okay, because the other day you came into my room and you saw that I had dishes stacked up on my nightstand.

And you said, get those dishes down to the kitchen. You know you're not supposed to have them in here. How many times do I have to tell you that? And she goes, it felt like you're giving me an order. And he goes, well, yeah, how many times do I have to tell you to not have dirty dishes in your bedroom?

And she goes, I hear you talk to mom all the time and you don't give her orders. And she's totally right about that because it's like peer to peer as equals, he would never give his wife an order. And she goes, I've heard you talk to your friends all the time.

You don't order them to do things. Why do you order me to do things? And he said, I didn't realize I was doing that. And so she clearly pointed out what would have worked better, which is he could have gone in her bedroom and said, hey, I know we've talked about this a bunch of times, but you got a bunch of dirty dishes there.

Could you please, before you do anything else, would you mind bringing those into the kitchen and setting them in the sink? It's an ask, not an order. And sometimes when I explain this to people, they go, so you just ask your kids to do something? What if they don't do it? My response to that is, it's an ask, but it's still an order.

Come on, let's be honest. When he's saying to her, could you pick up your dishes and put them in the sink, he's telling her what to do. Without a doubt. And it would never be okay for that girl to say, I'm not going to do that. Because the dad would know how to respond to that.

Andy Earle: I don't feel like it.

Paul Sunseri: Yeah. Really? Is that how it works in our family? When I ask you to do something, you only do it when you feel like it? I don't think that's how that works. I need you to pick up those dishes, please. So she's making a very good point, which is, treat people with dignity and respect. And when you have teenagers they're all about that stuff. They don't want to lose face and be treated like a little kid.

So, if you can effectively make the shift from giving commands to making asks, I think you're greatly increasing the probability the kid will comply. How do you get them to do it? First thing is you have a culture within your family that kids do what they're asked to do, right?

It's just from the moment they're born. It's without question that parents are in charge and the kids really do need to do what they're asked to do. You're not a drill sergeant. You're not mean in any way. You're not one of those authoritarian parents that just barks out orders at their kids.

You're loving and you're kind, but in our family when I ask you to do something, I really need you to do it. It's not optional. You don't get to decide which ones you follow and which ones you don't. So this is the climate that you have in your home.

Leveraging Privileges for Compliance
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Paul Sunseri: When a kid opposes you or says, I'm not going to do it, or stop badgering me, or get off my back, you revert to the next step in the strategy. Now it's time to say or do something to make sure that they follow through on what I just asked them to do.

It is never okay for kids to tell their parents no and then tell them to F off on top of it, which is a lot of the kids that I work with. It's like, it just doesn't work like that. So you have to figure out what you can do, what leverage you have, to get a kid to comply.

And the easiest way to do that, the one that is most flexible, is you leverage their privileges. The things that they want to do. For most teenagers, it's their phone. It's a gaming system. It might be time on the weekends with a friend. The privileges all kids have the options of earning. So it's not terribly complicated, nor is what I'm advocating so weird and strange that it falls outside of what is typical in most families, but privileges need to be earned. They're not just handed out. If a kid says, well, I'm not going to empty the trash, then what I would probably do is say, well, I'm not going to fight with you about that.

Either do it please within the next five minutes or all of your screens are off until you do. And a easy version of that is, well, then please put your phone up on the kitchen counter until the trash is empty. You don't have to do it right now if you don't want to, but I will not give you back your phone until you do.

That's an easy way of doing it. Some kids will not put their phone up on the kitchen counter, no matter what. But then you can disable their screens remotely. There's all kinds of ways I describe in the book on how to do that.

I need you to do what I asked you to do. I'm not going to fight with you about it.

I'm not going to ask you 10 times either. I'm going to ask you once. I may give you a reminder, but if you still don't do what I asked you to do, your privileges are now unavailable to you. And the only way I'm going to return them to is when you then do the thing that I want. Highly effective. For most teenagers being without their phone for 5 minutes is horrific to them.

But you don't have to fight about it. Either do it or don't do it. There's no argument here. But if you don't, you're going to be without your stuff until you do. The vast majority of kids, if you get into that routine with them. I call it pause, earn and return reinforcements.

You pause the screens, they have to be earned back based on engaging whatever behavior it was that they weren't giving you in the first place. And then they're ultimately returned to them.

You can do the same thing with disrespect. So, if a kid tells you to F off, just phone up on the counter. You know it's not okay to talk to me that way. And I would be happy to give it back once you've been respectful for a while.

Right, so the kid has to engage in the opposite behavior. You go for some length of time for them giving you that positive behavior, and then you return the privilege to them. You can pause privileges as little as an hour, which often can have a big effect. I never recommend that privileges are paused more than a few days.

That would have to be for something really big. Like kicking a hole in the wall or taking a swing at their parents. But never a month. The way most parents give consequences is, well, you cursed at me, you've lost your phone for a week.

That's the most common way of doing it. Which doesn't work at all, for a number of different reasons. First and foremost, when you say you're without your screens for a week, they always blow up. Because they got nothing to lose at that point.

They're going to go for broke. But when you say, you're only going to get your stuff back as soon as you earn it. You can start earning it right now if you want. And one way of doing that is to accept the consequence. You tend to get either no escalations when you use pause, earn, and return, or you get fairly minor ones. Far less than what you get when you cancel something for a week.

Just saying, you gotta be respectful to me, for a while. Start right now if you want, and the sooner you start and the nicer you are to me, I suppose, the faster I'm going to give your stuff back. Alternatively, you can be mad at me for a couple days. And then start earning your phone back. But I'll let you decide. That's completely up to you.

Conclusion and Resources
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Andy Earle: Wow, I can definitely see that. It's great to know that you're doing this work and people aren't alone. Your book is a great resource for people. I would highly encourage everyone to check out Gentle Parenting Reimagined, How to Make it Work with Oppositional and Defiant Kids.

Paul Sunseri: Thank you, Andy. It's been such a pleasure talking to you. I appreciate the opportunity to come on and it's been a really enjoyable discussion.

Andy Earle: I am so grateful to you for coming on the show. It's been great. Where can people go to learn more about you and to follow updates from you?

Paul Sunseri: So I'm all the places I'm on Facebook.

I'm on Instagram. I'm on LinkedIn. If you just Google my last name, Sunseri, everything pops up. But the easiest starting place to learn more about me and my work is at the website for intensive family focused therapy. It's my M Y I F F T. org. That's the best starting place.

Andy Earle: Awesome.

We're here today talking with Paul Sunseri about how to get your teenager to do something the first time you ask. And we're not done yet. Here's a look at what's coming up in the second half of the show.

Paul Sunseri:

It keeps kids off balance, but I think that's where they need to be to be honest with you. It puts parents back in the power position. Because so many of these parents feel like they have no power anymore. That their kid is ruling the roost. And that is 100 percent what's actually going on. You'd be surprised how capable kids are of doing this from about the age of seven or eight and beyond. And then you give them a reason to do it. And you don't fight with them. I'm not going to wake you up. I'm not going to do it anymore. You can't tell your kid you're gonna do something and then not do it.

'Cause then they see you as being kind of, squishy in your limits, or maybe timid. They don't want that. I like using humor with kids because it feels like a way of making a connection. I'm reaching out and touching them for no reason whatsoever beyond the fact that I love them and I see them right there. It's a lifetime of doing hard things. It's not a lifetime of avoiding hard things. That's what grinds down a kid's self esteem. And what parent when they hear, if you try to get me to do this and I'm going to kill myself, what parent is going to do it?

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Thanks for listening, and we'll see you next time.