Talking To Teens: Expert Tips for Parenting Teenagers

Introduction to Talking to Teens
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Andy Earle: You're listening to Talking to Teens, where we speak with leading experts from a variety of disciplines about the art and science of parenting teenagers. I'm your host, Andy Earle.

We're talking today about the science of teenage disengagement.

Research shows that parents are often over optimistic about how engaged their teens are with learning.

Today's guests have discovered there are actually four different modes of engagement.

Their research shows that we want to treat our teens differently depending on which mode they're in.

Meet the Experts: Jenny Anderson and Rebecca Winthrop
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Andy Earle: On the show today, we have Jenny Anderson and Rebecca Winthrop.

Jenny is an award winning journalist who spent more than a decade at the New York Times before pioneering coverage on the science of learning at Quartz.

Rebecca is a senior fellow and director of the Center for Universal Education at Brookings and an adjunct professor at Georgetown University.

Together, Jenny and Rebecca are the authors of the new book, The Disengaged Teen, Helping Kids Learn Better, Feel Better, and Live Better.

Welcome both of you to the Talking to Teens podcast. Thank you so much for coming on the show. I'm really excited to have you here.

Jenny Anderson: Thanks for having us.

Rebecca Winthrop: Thank you for having us. We're excited.

Andy Earle: There's so much to unpack.

The Disengaged Teen: Origins and Insights
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Andy Earle: I've been reading through your book, The Disengaged Teen and there's a lot of research, interviews with teenagers, educators, parents, and researchers. Can you talk a little bit about where did this project initiate from and how did it end up in this form?

Rebecca Winthrop: Sure. I will kick off. It's Rebecca. I have been working in education for 25 years. And I really got it wrong during COVID when I realized that with my two sons, the kid who I thought was engaged at school was not, and the one who I didn't think was engaged actually was. Which was a real eye opener because I know that most parents don't have my background and could really use some tips and guidance about how to coach their kids to be better learners.

And I knew how important engagement is. So grades is only half of the story. And went to find someone who could work with me, my favorite education journalist, Jenny, to really tell this story to parents and help them. Jenny, why did you say yes?

Jenny Anderson: I was a finance reporter actually for a long time, almost 20 years. And when I had kids, I wanted to switch gears. I got really interested in learning and development and how kids grow and learn. I switched beats and I was genuinely shocked at how little mainstream media, and it felt like society, at large, in many ways, did not care about this topic.

It was really amazing to me that we could have four reporters on financial markets and two reporters on Goldman Sachs and one JP Morgan and one person covering all of education across the United States. And it just was a real wake up call to why do we not care as much about this incredibly important period, right?

How kids develop, how they learn. We write about the politics of education a lot, but not about the sort of process and the experience, relying on teachers as experts to help us translate this. We don't treat teachers like the experts that they are.

So, when Rebecca came to me, I was reluctant because it was a big project and I had written another book. But I was also excited about the prospect of filling in a real hole in terms of not just supporting teens emotionally, which I think there's some great work on, work we really relied on, but really translating this slightly wonkier field of learning and development for parents.

Understanding the Disengagement Gap
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Andy Earle: Rebecca, you were talking about the misperceptions that you had in terms of your kids and which one was more engaged and which was less engaged. It makes me think of a concept from your book called the disengagement gap, where you surveyed parents versus kids and there was a difference between the perceptions.

What was going on there? Can you break that down?

Rebecca Winthrop: We did a big nationally representative survey with our partner, Transcend. This is Brookings Transcend research of students and parents. And what we found was when kids are little, probably first, second, third grade, parents have a good sense of how engaged their kids are. But when kids get older, especially middle school and high school, parents think that kids are having a much better time at school than they actually report.

By the time you get to 10th grade, there's a 30 point difference where parents are like, yeah, my kids love school, they learn a lot, they're engaged, and kids are like, nope, ain't true. It is really telling that it's not parents fault that they don't know. I say this as someone inside the education community for decades.

It's our fault for not doing a better job telling parents what good learning looks like. Being engaged is a central part of what good learning looks like.

Andy Earle: Where do you think that comes from? Is this because our kids are just telling us, Hey, yeah. School's fine, things are okay, and not really telling us what's going on with them, or how could there be such a big gap between the perceptions on the parent's side versus the reality on the ground with the kids?

Jenny Anderson: I love that you just said that, Andy, because the original title of the book was My Day Was Fine, which we thought would resonate with a lot of parents who really want to know what's happening in school and, typically ask that question and get, my day was fine. And everybody feels unsatisfied. Parents are like, but what does that mean?

And what did you do? And what did you learn? And did nothing happen today? A lot of learning is invisible. It's not like watching a soccer game and you watch someone get better at a goal kick and faster on the pitch, right?

A lot of that is a process that we're not seeing. Part of what we wanted to do with the book was close that gap by giving parents accessible language around how kids show up for their learning.

The Four Modes of Learning
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Jenny Anderson: We introduced this concept of four modes of learning. Kids turn up in these four modes: in Resistor mode, in Passenger mode, in Achiever mode, and in Explorer mode. These are very dynamic modes.

These are not identities. But we can get into that when you're ready. That was why we think the gap between how kids feel and what parents know has a few causes. One is that we don't have very good language, and we really tried to address that in the book. We don't always ask the best questions.

We tend to say, how was your day? And they say, fine. It's a little bit like if I asked you, Andy, how was your day at work? You would probably say, fine. And it's, It's a very broad question. We need to ask much more specific, targeted, informed, curious, open ended, nonjudgmental questions, which sounds daunting, but is actually not once you get the hang of it.

It's a mindset shift. But I think those are two of the main reasons.

Andy Earle: I found those four modes very interesting, and it's not just engagement. Engagement is part of it, but another big part of it is agency and the extent to which a kid is actually having some control over what they're doing, what they're learning.

Can you break that down a little bit how those two things come together?

Rebecca Winthrop: We found that the four modes have two dimensions. One is the modes that are the most passive. So Passenger mode are the kids coasting, doing the bare minimum. And they're pretty compliant. They're showing up physically, but a lot of them have dropped out of learning.

They're not really cognitively engaged, not enjoying it. Achiever mode sounds really good, but it is also very focused on following instructions and doing what they're asked, which is a good thing, but there can be a downside to Achiever mode, which we can get to. But then you have kids who have a bit more agency, which means they are expressing and being more proactive about what is working and isn't working for them. Resister mode kids actually have some agency.

It's just pointed away from their learning. So they are often inappropriately using their behaviors to tell us this isn't working for me. It could be skipping class, being class clown, could be not doing homework, and then things actually can get much more severe. Chronic absenteeism, and other situations for kids in Resistor mode.

But oftentimes if you give them the right context or the right environment, they can move to Explore mode, which is Kids who also have agency and are proactive and take initiative, but it's pointed towards their learning. And these are kids who are asking their teacher, Hey, I know we're working on the solar system, but could I do my essay on Mars?

I love Mars. Or, oh, this is really cool. Can I study with a friend? They're making suggestions. They're trying to make their learning environment work better for them. It's this virtuous upward cycle. Teachers notice how into it they are and then teachers are human beings.

They reward them. They give them more interesting work, more freedom, and the kids get more excited about learning, do better. So that's really the mode we want our kids to be in.

Challenges of Passenger Mode
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Andy Earle: You write in the book that the most common mode is Passenger mode with, I believe, over 50 percent of kids finding themselves in this space of being low on both aspects of engagement.

Rebecca Winthrop: Low engagement and low agency. They're showing up physically, but that's about it.

Andy Earle: It seems like boys are even more likely to be in Passenger mode than girls based on some of the research you guys talked about. What's going on there? And why is that such a dangerous place for kids to be?

Jenny Anderson: Yes, there are more boys in this mode, though the data wasn't as stark as we had anticipated. I think 1 of the bigger problems we have. And a lot of people have addressed this. We've relied on the work of Richard Reeves here. Is the boys develop slower than girls? And this is where the intersection of development and learning is so important and so incredibly overlooked.

So, boys are going to struggle to sit still and learn and do worksheets. And girls have internalized that they should behave and be obedient. And so they're more willing to do it. And they are more developmentally ready to do it. And so they are perceived to be successful. Boys are then perceived to be more problematic.

They are often referred out for being problem children, because they can't sit still. I think we need to look really hard at the design of schools and say, what are we doing to kids that we're asking so many kids to sit still for so long at such a young age when that is not what they are developmentally meant to be doing.

But 1 of the recommendations that Richard Reeves makes is that we hold boys back a year early, not in the middle of the game where there's a lot of social stigma around what it is to hold a kid back, but just at the very beginning, give them another year for their little brains to develop. Because there is a slower developmental trajectory there.

And you also asked, why is Passenger mode so dangerous? You're essentially not developing the skills you need to succeed. In a world of generative AI, where you're going to have to know, not just how to jump through a bunch of hoops, but know what hoops you want to get through and how to get through that hoop.

If all you've ever learned is how to comply, that's not going to get you very far, right? You're missing out on the opportunity to develop the muscles, skills, and the agency really to take charge of your learning and study. I mean, we were amazed at the number of kids who told us in our research, I just don't know how to study.

If you're in Passenger mode, it's tricky for you. And so you give up. You're not developing the skills and you get so far behind that you don't want to ask. And then it feels like it's too late, and you've lost your chances. You see that cycle happening, right?

We need to get in front of that cycle and help those kids figure out what the challenge is. Maybe it's a learning difference. Maybe it's they just don't know how to study. Maybe they don't know how to get started. Those are all things that we can work with, right? We can help with that. We can develop some strategies.

We need to get in front of it and not wait until they're so disengaged that they're failing out, they're refusing to go to school. So those are some of the risks of Passenger mode. Rebecca, did I miss anything on the boys?

Rebecca Winthrop: Another piece is that they don't gain status for achievement.

There is a norm out there that they gain status in other ways.

We did find a bit, in our qualitative research that more boys were talking about coasting.

Andy Earle: I picture Passenger mode as really coasting, like you're saying, figuring out what's the bare minimum that I need to do to get by. I could see that being really hard to detect as a parent because, okay, it doesn't seem to be a problem. Your grades are, pretty good. You seem to be doing okay. You come home from school and say it was fine.

What are some of the signs or how do you start to notice when your kid is more in Passenger mode rather than being truly engaged with what they're doing?

Rebecca Winthrop: It is really hard for a lot of parents to notice when kids are in Passenger mode.

Some kids will be in Passenger mode because they're struggling, but a lot of kids are in Passenger mode because it's too easy. When they say they're bored in school, they are actually bored in school. And they have good grades. Which is the main feedback loop that we parents get. It was why I misjudged.

I know better now, my own kids. And some of the signs are how they talk about their learning at home. So if you say, hey, how's it going? How's school? I don't know. It's fine. It's good. Are they rushing through homework and just doing the bare minimum to get it done in time? Are they not putting in any extra effort, maybe reading the Cliff Notes version of Romeo and Juliet versus the actual book, et cetera.

They can be happy to go to school to see their friends. Do they ever talk about the content of what they're learning as something that's interesting? You notice right away when kids are in Explore mode. Usually they are super excited about something they're learning and unprompted they will just come out with, Oh my gosh, did you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And sadly, so many parents have kids who are not in Explore mode that we rarely see it, so it's hard to compare. I've noticed with my own children when they started becoming more and more in Explore mode.

Right before break, my son came home, my younger son, who's in middle school. Mom! Hi sweetie, how are you? Mom, oh my gosh, we did the coolest thing in math! We did functions with marbles. Then he whips out his laptop and starts showing me this video game marble run math thing. I sat there for a good 20 minutes staring at it. And I didn't quite know what I was looking at, but I encouraged him.

It was so different from his affect when he's just had kind of a blah passenger day.

Andy Earle: And a big part of getting out of Passenger mode is getting really interested in something developing an interest that draws you in. How as a parent, can we help to facilitate that with our kids?

Jenny Anderson: I think the first thing we can do is notice. You know, our kids are often indicating to us what they're interested in, and then we're putting judgments as to whether that's a productive interest or not, right?

Skateboarding was a big one. We went down a long rabbit hole. Is skateboarding a legitimate interest? Our stance on this, after much debate and much research, is any interest, as long as it is not harming the child or someone else is legit. It is the canvas on which they are going to develop skills.

It is the place where they are going to get that internal fire that gets them started, that gets them from novice to slightly expert to curious to competent to engaged in learning. And so that's the cycle we're trying to start. And especially with kids in Passenger mode. It does not matter where that starts. Again, as long as they're not hurting themselves or hurting someone else.

We want to find a canvas on which they are developing that spark so that spark can then spill over to school. You know, You can't make a kid love learning. It doesn't work that way. You can't tell them to love learning and to be driven and to be motivated. They have to feel it. And it's like a good drug, not a bad drug.

It's like that great feeling when they master something, it might be tying their shoes, spelling a word correctly, reciting a poem in front of the class. And like the absolute sense of joy that accomplishment gets.

We need to keep finding those little moments. And so, noticing the interests, leaning into them as much as possible. And I do think college admissions plays a really nefarious role here. Because we get very opinionated about what's a good interest and what's not a good interest.

And I think if we have kids disengaged in learning and so many kids so unhappy, let's just leave those judgments behind. And make sure our kids are developing a sense of who they are, what they care about. Developing that identity in a way that is rich and real and not fabricated for the purpose of getting in somewhere.

Rebecca Winthrop: And college admissions officers can tell when it's real, when kids are really interested. We've talked to a number of college counselors and college admissions officers, and they often ask kids and they want to know what do they do on their free time? In other words, what is their real passion?

We need to give kids space for discovering that.

The Achiever Mode Conundrum
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Andy Earle: One of these modes sounds pretty good, this Achiever mode. Kids are doing well, they're performing well, they listen, they follow instructions, they do what their teachers are telling them, they want to impress their coaches, they're working hard, they're getting good grades, they're a star on whatever team they're on.

What was interesting in your data was the highest rates of depression were coming from kids that are actually in Achiever Mode. What's going on there? And how does that relationship play out?

Rebecca Winthrop: We found that there are two sides to Achiever Mode. There's the happy Achiever Mode, which is good because these kids are learning organization skills, study skills, persistence, goal orientation.

And those kids are striving for excellence. And then you have the unhappy Achiever Mode. So very quickly, kids can tip into unhappy achiever mode, which is not good. These kids are striving for perfection and they are scared to fail because they feel like it's going to be the end of the world.

They're also scared to take risks. They end up being very fragile learners. They feel constantly like they're comparing themselves to others, like school is a competition. Which is very unhealthy for adolescents who need connection, and collaboration with their peers in particular. And that can drive kids into mental health problems. When kids are in unhappy Achiever mode, they, get good grades and they do go on to college at higher rates than kids in Resistor mode, but by the 2nd year of college, a ton of them have dropped out and they're enrolled in the same rates as kids who were in Resistor mode.

So we have to be very careful about kids slipping into unhappy Achiever mode.

Andy Earle: Achiever Mode seems fragile because as long as you're achieving and things are going well for you, and you're receiving accolades and praise for being smart and good at whatever it is, then you'll keep doing it. But as soon as it stops working for you, or you get to the higher level of AP and it's all of a sudden not easy for you. You get to the higher level of sports team or you get to the next phase and all of a sudden it's not coming easy for you or you're starting to fall behind, it breaks down a little bit.

Jenny Anderson: One of the kids we interviewed was very squarely in Achiever mode for a good long time.

She got to an elite Ivy league college and fell apart. She achieved a lot in high school, quite easily. Got to college, things got hard, and she didn't have any muscles for coping with setback or asking her parents for help. Her parents loved her to pieces.

She had gotten so many gold stars and internalized that her self worth was her set of gold stars, that she didn't want to tell them. She was convinced they would be crushed by that. We call it the achiever conundrum because it's a really tough place for a parent to be.

Of course, we want our kids to work hard, and have a strong work ethic, take pride in their work, and strive for excellence. We want all of those things, like a hundred percent. But at what cost? This is a system that is insatiable and will demand everything it can from our kids.

And we are the ones who sit between the system and our kids. And we are the ones who have to say, enough. You need more sleep. You need some time with your friends. You need some time not doing something, right? You're not doing your piano. You're not doing your sports. You're not doing your academics.

You're playing with the dog. You're taking a walk with your friends. You're going to get a coffee. Whatever the thing is that you're doing, it's just downtime, right? We need to be that buffer to make sure that those kids in happy Achiever mode don't slip into unhappy Achiever mode and making sure they know they are not just their gold stars.

They are kids who are three dimensional and should be able to fail.

Andy Earle: Wow.

Conclusion and Further Resources
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Andy Earle: This time has been flying by. We have covered so many great things. And there's so much more in the book. You break down all of the different modes and go through detailed situations your kids could be in. What you could do, what you could say to help them get more engaged.

I highly recommend people check it out. Grateful to you both for making the time to come on the show today and share your work with us.

I really hope people will pick up a copy of The Disengaged Teen.

Rebecca Winthrop: Thank you for having us.

Andy Earle: Can you talk about where people could go to find out more about what you're doing or to engage further with what you guys are up to?

Rebecca Winthrop: Sure. We have our website, the disengaged teen. com with our book information and it has our links.

Both Jenny and I have newsletters. Jenny has a sub stack called How to be Brave. I have a newsletter on LinkedIn called Winthrop's World of Education. And we have our contact information. We'd be happy to engage.

Jenny Anderson: And we can be found on Instagram at Dr. Rebecca Winthrop and at Jenny Anderson writes.

Rebecca Winthrop: I keep forgetting that one.

Andy Earle: Jenny and Rebecca, thank you for coming on the show. It's been an honor and congrats on the book.

Jenny Anderson: Thank you so much for having us.

Andy Earle: We're here today with Jenny Anderson and Rebecca Winthrop talking about the science of teenage disengagement. And we're not done yet. Here's a look at what's coming up in the second half of the show.

Rebecca Winthrop: We know that less than 10 percent of kids in our research were in Explore mode in school.

Jenny Anderson: Kids are not benefiting from doing more all the time.

The mental health stats really speak to that loudly. We have to do everything in our power in the time that we have to let them be kids again and be bored.

Rebecca Winthrop: Her research shows that it really boosts brain development, this transcendent thinking between the here and now and what does it mean, big picture, meaning making, going back and forth. And that showed that kids develop over time a stronger sense of identity.

This is the nagging procrastination loop from hell that all parents are probably familiar with where it gets worse and worse.

Jenny Anderson: One small tip is a lot of parents sit with their kids to do their homework. Like, I'm going to sit here and make sure you do your homework. I think there's a big difference between that and, "would it be useful to you if I did some of my work next to you while you're doing your work?"

Andy Earle: want to hear the full interview? Sign up for a subscription today. It's completely affordable. And your membership supports the work we do here at Talking to Teens. You can now sign up directly through Apple Podcasts. Thanks for listening. And we'll see you next time.