Talking To Teens: Expert Tips for Parenting Teenagers

Andy Earle: You're listening to Talking to Teens, where we speak with leading experts from a variety of disciplines about the art and science of parenting teenagers. I'm your host, Andy Earle.

We're here today with John Coleman talking about the psychology of the teenage brain. There are a lot of changes happening in the teenage brain. There are scientific explanations for what is happening with your teenager. Why do teenagers stay up late and struggle to get up in the morning?

Do they really take more risks or is that an urban legend? We hear about hormones so much, but what does the science really say about it?

In today's episode, we are diving deep into all these questions with John Coleman. He's the founder of a research center studying adolescents and their families. During his career, he's also run a special school for troubled teenagers and worked as a policy advisor for the government. He was awarded an OBE for services to young people.

And he's the author of the book, The Psychology of the Teenage Brain.

John, thank you so much for coming on the show today.

John Coleman: Really good to be with you.

Andy Earle: Wow. What a topic. How did you get interested in this? What led you to becoming an expert in the psychology of the teenage brain?

John Coleman: It started with an organization in the UK who had developed a program called My Baby's Brain. And essentially, what they'd done was develop videos workshops and things for parents of younger children about the brain and about how parents could help their two year olds and three year olds develop a healthy brain.

And it was a very successful program, but they felt that there was more to do. And they focused on the teenage brain. And at that time I was at the University of Oxford, and they asked me if I would help them. And anyway, one thing led to another, and we gradually, together, with colleagues, developed a whole series of films, workshops, materials to help parents, then practitioners, and then the pressure was on to do something for young people themselves.

So it went quite wide and the program is still running. I know for this podcast, working with parents on this topic has been such a delight and so rewarding because essentially most parents don't know what is happening.

They don't know how significant the changes are in the teenage brain, and they say things like It's a light bulb moment, why didn't I know this before? This is so helpful. And often they say, I will never talk to my teenager in the quite the same way again.

It casts quite a different perspective on behaviors that parents do find very challenging and difficult to manage. And I have been working with parents of teenagers for many years, and one of the things that I often used to focus on was communication, because I argued that the better the parent and the teenager could talk, the more they could talk to each other, the more likely that the relationship would work out a bit better.

But then, this knowledge about the brain came along and I started to think this is so important. And so anyway that's really how it all started. And I've been developing more materials. We've obviously looked at and encouraged parents to think about quite a range of things. Sleep is obviously important because the hormone melatonin makes a difference to the teenager's sleep.

Hormones like dopamine, which encourage the teenager to look for rewards, those sorts of things. Anger, managing anger, stress but also the opportunity to explore new areas and try out new things and be curious and so on. So, in very brief summary, that is how it all started.

Andy Earle: We get so many parents who find our website and podcast, email us and say, Hey, wow, I don't know what happened. My kid is 13 years old and it's such a huge change in our relationship. One day things were fine and the next day everything felt crazy and I'm struggling to regain my footing.

What is it about 13, 14? Something just shifts in the brain at that time and it throws everything out of whack.

John Coleman: Absolutely. I think the big thing to keep in mind is that first of all, these changes are bigger than anyone realized before we had the technology of scanning.

In fact, around the year 2000 people thought that the brain stopped developing at the end of childhood. And so it was a big change in our understanding to learn how big the change in the brain is during the teenage years. Probably the biggest change in the brain apart from during infancy.

So the thing to remember about it is it's both a positive, because the brain is maturing and allowing for new skills, abstract reasoning, better memory, languages developing, those sorts of things. But on the other hand, there are some very challenging things happening, and a key thing is that the brain undergoes something that we call pruning.

And what that means is that there is a great increase at the end of childhood in the gray matter. The gray matter is where all the nerve cells are, the neurons are. So what the young person experiences is too many neurons and too many connections. And so the brain goes, undergoes a process, which is known as pruning, which is essentially reducing the number of neurons and the number of connections.

Now, pruning is a strange term, but effectively the neurons and the connections that are not used are allowed to die away. And so the brain effectively gets smaller. Which sounds strange, but actually this is the case. Now, this process ultimately has a very positive outcome in the sense that the brain restructures itself, reorganizes itself, and becomes more efficient. But the process of restructuring makes you feel uncertain, leads to confusion, and so on. So that's happening.

But the other thing that's important is everyone knows the teenage years are sometimes called the years of the raging hormones, and I use that term in one of the chapters in the book. But most people think that those are the sex hormones. But actually we've got dozens of hormones in our bodies and in our brains, but there are a few that are really important and impact the teenager.

And what happens is that for all of us, the level of hormones goes up and down during any 24 hour period. But in the teenage years, that variation is bigger. It's greater. And so the hormones to do with mood, to do with impulsivity, to do with stress, those things are not stable. And that means that the teenager can be happy as anything one moment and plunged into despair the next.

We often talk about the catastrophic sort of reaction, that the teenager hasn't got a stabilizer. Like if something bad happens, then it's terrible. It's the end of the world. And that's due to these hormones not being properly regulated.

You've got the fact that the brain is restructuring itself, you've got the hormones all over the place. And, of course, we have to add in there the physical development of puberty, because puberty is also occurring. And that means the body is changing. Your whole self image is changing. And young people have anxiety about how they look at this time, how their friendships are going to work out, and so on.

So all these things are happening at the same time. And so when the parent says, suddenly my lovely, cuddly child has become a recluse, shutting themselves away or they just keep arguing with me, or they're criticizing me.

And we often have parents coming into groups saying, my teenager said I'm a crap parent. I feel terrible. The teenager is doing this because there is a push at this time to become more autonomous, to be able to take control yourself.

Andy, I often say to parents, keep in mind that inside every teenager is both a child and an adult. So you've got the childish behavior. But you've also got this, I want to take responsibility. I want to decide myself. I don't want my parents interfering. And there's a classic thing, the parent tries to give advice and the teenager says, I'm not listening to you, I don't want any of that.

So the parent backs off, and then the next day the teenager says, so you're not interested in me, you don't ever give me any advice. You have both these contradictory paradoxical things inside. For parents, it is really helpful to keep in mind that this is a stage, and it's a tricky stage, because it is this transition, half child, half parent.

And everyone knows that transitions can be tricky. Someone said to me, being the parent of a teenager is harder than being a brain surgeon. We work with so many parents and they're scratching their head, they're at their wits end. And that's why I wrote this book. Knowing something about how the brain is changing, parents say, makes them more sympathetic. Because they thought the teenager was just being very difficult.

Setting out to make them upset. Once they can understand the changes the young person themselves are experiencing, what's going on in here, which of course is invisible. That's another interesting thing, we can see puberty. We can see their body changing. We don't look in here.

Once parents recognize how much is changing for the young person it can be really helpful. I have so many parents turning up for the workshops and saying, thank you. I should have known this earlier. This will be really helpful. And I won't respond to my young person in the same way.

Andy Earle: What's like the timeline look like? You're talking about this proliferation of gray matter, and then we've got the pruning coming in, we've got the hormones starting to kick in.

There's the autonomy need really spiking up. How do all of those pieces fit together? Is some of this started in the tween phase? What's the order of when these changes are happening in the brain and how does that play out?

John Coleman: It's not easy to answer that. If you think about physical puberty, there are huge individual differences. You can have someone starting puberty in grade five, grade six, or not till much, much later.

So we do have this big variation in terms of physical puberty, and something similar is happening in the brain. I think it's reasonable to say that for most, these big changes, particularly around the pruning, the hormone changes, and so on, probably start to kick in around the age of 13, 14, 15. Now for some it may be a bit earlier, for some maybe a bit later, but I think for most you could imagine 13, 14, 15 being the peak age for these sorts of changes in the brain. Now, anyone who's read about this knows one of the things that is often discussed now is that some of these changes continue into the early 20s.

And I'm often being asked, is this pruning still going on when they're 21? The answer is probably not. We think the changes that continue into 18 to 22 or 23, these are much smaller changes. This bit in the front, the prefrontal cortex, is probably still maturing.

The prefrontal cortex is really where reasoning, the thinking, the problem solving is taking place. Sometimes we say that area is the command and control center. And although it is maturing, and it starts maturing probably around 11 or so, it takes longer than other parts of the brain to reach full maturity.

For parents, it's good to focus on the fact that positive things are happening.

That's often a surprise to parents, we're not looking in a laboratory at how that brain is maturing. But of course, all sorts of new skills are coming on board.

There's lots of positive things and one of the really good things for parents is to encourage curiosity, encourage interest in new ideas. The more parents can encourage the development of the prefrontal cortex, the more young people will be able to manage some of the variation in hormone, some of the uncertainty and confusion and so on. There are things that both young people and adults can do to help that brain move as quickly as possible to a brain that can cope better with the ups and downs of emotions and so on.

Andy Earle: That sounds good. We need to learn those things. You got me thinking about that because you're talking earlier about the individual differences and how there's a range and some kids are going to be experiencing these changes earlier. Some kids it's going to be later. So then I start to wonder how much of that is nature, how much of that is nurture? And what can we do as parents to smooth that out or make that transition go as nicely as possible?

John Coleman: I once was working with a group of students, and this very articulate young man said to me, so my brain is changing, so there's nothing I can do, eh? And I said, actually, it's not quite as simple as that. There are things you can do, and there are things that your family can put in place which are really going to help you.

Routines are really good. Sensible structure is really helpful. And setting those boundaries. They'll be broken, of course. The teenager will push against them. But those structures, and knowing where they stand, and having routines and boundaries, all that is going to help this bit of the frontal area, help it mature.

So yes, there are things that parents and young people can do. It's not just a black box and that's the end of it.

Andy Earle: Why does it seem like teenagers are so prone to doing stupid stuff? Is that is there a neurological basis for that?

John Coleman: One of the ways in which I'm asked that is, why don't teenagers think about consequences?

Andy Earle: It's like that stereotypical conversation I remember having so many times with my parents when I was a teenager. What were you thinking? What were you thinking when you did that? I don't know. I wasn't thinking.

John Coleman: Exactly. There is an explanation and you have to imagine that the brain has a whole series of networks between the different sites.

And the really key thing, as far as consequences is concerned, are the networks between the area that's to do with emotion, where the hormones are really getting active, and we call that the amygdala. It's part of a bigger system, but it's basically the area where emotion is processed. And then the bit in the front of the brain, which I've been talking about, which is the prefrontal cortex.

Now, what we think happens is that gradually, during the teenage years, those two things get networked. In other words, you have networks between each of them, so they influence each other. During the 13, 14, 15 years, those networks are still very immature. And so when the young person is overwhelmed by dopamine, let's say and there's a real push for having a great time and get driving a car at speed when they shouldn't be or being, or possibly, of course, using substances, the networks that link those impulses with the front of the brain are still immature. And that means they can be overwhelmed.

The part of the brain that says, I shouldn't do that, or, I need to think about what will happen if I do that, that's not powerful enough to overcome those impulses. And so it is absolutely right when we say, why didn't you think, the teenager says, I didn't think. Simply, that bit of my brain that is the thinking bit either wasn't functioning, or was asleep, or didn't have the strength to control what the impulses were doing.

The general view is that the reason there is this behavior of not thinking, of not recognizing consequences, is to do with the way the brain is structured at this time. And as the prefrontal cortex matures, obviously that will get better.

Now I should say there are other factors. We do need to recognize that the brain and the environment influence each other. You were talking about nature and nurture. There is a two way influence process. And the likelihood of taking risks, or not thinking about consequences, is greater for teenagers when they're with their peer group.

And when they're on their own, they're much more able to make use of the networks that link the thinking to the emotional centers. Of course, the peer group has lots of very valuable positive elements for adolescent development. But when you look at evidence from studies, for example, of taking risks driving, or using substances, it is more likely the young person will not think about consequences if they're in a peer group situation.

In the literature there's a discussion around distinguishing between hot and cold situations. This might be helpful for parents. A hot situation is when you're at a party or in a car with other young people, and a cold situation is where you're on your own and can think about things. And the there's quite a lot of evidence that shows higher levels of risk taking in those situations where others are around. But I am concerned saying this. We mustn't demonize the peer group because young people need others of the same age in order to develop social skills, to learn how to manage group situations, to work out whether the person they're interacting with, is that someone who's going to harm me or look after me. All those skills are very important and you can't learn those unless you're in social situations..

Yes, it's true that when you're in the peer group you may take more risks. But risk taking also varies between individuals hugely. And we have to be careful because a young person without peers, without social interaction, is not going to develop the social skills that they really need. So just add that in.

Andy Earle: There's so much we can talk about. We didn't even get into what's going on socially in the teenage brain, which is another a can of worms we could get into. And individuality and finding identity and everything like that. There's a ton of topics we could cover.

There's so much going on in this book, The Psychology of the Teenage Brain. And it's amazing how much you packed into here. It's such a small, easy to read book, but it's so packed with information. And I'm really glad that you have put it together and that you've come on the show today to talk with us about it.

John Coleman: And it's been a great pleasure.

Andy Earle: What should we tell people about where they can go and find out more about your work or what you're doing or follow any updates from you?

John Coleman: I've got a website. That's just www. jcoleman. co. uk.

Andy Earle: Easy. And the psychology of the teenage brain is really easy to pick up anywhere.

John Coleman: Thank you so much, Andy. I've enjoyed talking to you.

Andy Earle: We're here today with John Coleman talking about the fascinating psychology of the teenage brain. And we're not done yet. Here's a look at what's coming up in the second half of the show.

John Coleman: One hormone I haven't mentioned is serotonin, and we talk quite a lot about that, because the serotonin goes down, and It really affects the mood. And we all know that most teenagers do have times when they feel really poorly.

If you give a reward to adults and teenagers, the same reward, some money or chocolate, and you look at the brain, the level of activation is higher in teenagers. Exactly the same reward. But it's higher in teenagers. And that's because of a higher level of dopamine. And it takes longer to go down.

It's very important for parents to recognize that this is a stage. And of course, knowing what's happening in the brain helps that, because it's an ever changing process. You're moving towards a more mature brain. So it's a stage. It's not going to stay the same. Recognize that you've got to get through this, because they will become more mature.

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Thanks for listening, and we'll see you next time.