Ep 248: What Would Gen-Z Do?
Andy Earle
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Thanks for being a listener. And here's the show. You're listening to talking to teens, where we speak with leading experts from a variety of disciplines about the art and science of parenting teenagers. I'm your host, Andy Earle.
We're here today with John Schlimm. Talking about Generation Z. Today's teenagers are not millennials, they are Gen Zers. And there are some big differences between Gen Z and all of the other generations. And if we have Jen's ears in our life, we want to be able to connect with them better, we need to understand what makes them unique. Our guest today, John Slim is a Harvard trained educator, artist, advocate and international award winning author, who was among the first to start piecing together the authentic and multifaceted face of Generation Z. Beyond the stigmas stereotypes and often misguided media profiling these dynamic young people who remain largely misunderstood and vastly underestimated. During the past several years, John's extensive revealing work and trusted relationships with Gen Z are across the country has resulted in several thought provoking essays for Huffington Post Harvard Ed magazine and others, and his groundbreaking collaboration with the Andy Warhol museum to create the Gen Z time capsule, which is a participatory project helping Gen Zers to further introduce themselves to the world, including to their own parents, teachers, community leaders, employers and others, while also turning them into a bonafide work of pop art. John is the author of the new book, what would Gen Z do really excited to speak with John today about what makes Gen Z tick? And how parents and adults of all kinds can have deeper and more meaningful conversations.
John, thank you so much for coming on the show today, really excited. Your book is all about Gen Z. And I am really, really interested in that. And I guess, first of all, what inspired you to write a book about Gen Z, and it really feels like it's written towards adults or people of other generations to help us understand and better communicate with Gen Z
John Schlimm
ears? Yeah, 100%. You know, I'm on about year six of my journey with the Gen Zers, who I first met in my classroom at the University where I was teaching. And at the time, I had this class of freshmen, and I still thought we were in the land of the millennials, right? Who I also had great respect for. In fact, I don't think any generation has been as bashed as millennials. But I certainly had great respect for them. And I saw the positives in them as well. But you know, with this class of freshmen, I saw that there was something a little bit different, but I couldn't quite put my finger on it. And I had never heard the term Generation Z before. At least one day, I referred to them as millennials, and not in a bad way, just as a matter of fact, and they were like, we're not. And I was like, Whoa, like, who are what are you? Like, what is this incredible universe that is being created, right? Training me? And they said, We're Generation Z. And I'm like, Huh, okay, you know what, I'm going to spend the next couple months of this semester getting to understand and learn what that is. And let me tell you, as soon as the first presentations were given the first class discussions, the first essays started coming in. That is when I started to understand what sets this group of young people apart from every generation before them, and really the first point of connection between us was how open and courageous they were in talking about their mental health. So for the first time, here's a generation that is speaking aloud words like anxiety, depression, suicide, I need help. I had never seen that before. And so I was like, you guys, I'm like, This is amazing. I said, Do you realize by just saying those words, it is the biggest leap forward the world has ever seen in mental health advocacy, and this is already the greatest gift you're giving to the world. And they were like, really, you know, because it's just everyday for them. And I love that because then this is just this is who we are. This is what we do. And so from that point on, I was just determined to help them further introduce themselves to the world so that It was six years ago, it's been a great ride. And I'm so glad at this point on the ride, we now have the book and we'll see where we go next.
Andy Earle
It feels like that's a really big theme of the book that Gen Z is really like in touch with their trauma, or like and has the vocabulary, and is comfortable using the vocabulary to really discuss all of that. And I think, I think in general, just have the having a broader vocabulary to discuss their inner life is, is something that really sticks out to me about what's different about this generation is like, they can talk about stuff that when I was their age, I'd I wouldn't even I didn't even understand I was feeling that are dealing with that. And so it's really cool. Yeah,
John Schlimm
right. And you know, when you when you say they have the vocabulary to do this, you know, what you really mean is, they're just using words, and speaking them. You know, it's not like there's even a coded language here, they are speaking in the simplest terms that any of us can understand. But the key is, we have to listen, that's the other part of this. We, as the older adults in the room, need to learn to listen, but what,
Andy Earle
how do we talk to Jen's ears without them being triggered, or having something that sends them off saying the wrong thing and, and sending them off into some spiral?
John Schlimm
So I absolutely love that you asked this question, because I think the key and you know, in look over the last six years, I've spent a lot of time across the country, not only speaking with Gen Zers, as well as speaking with older adults, about Gen Zers. But I've spent a lot of time observing all of them. And here, I think is the key. It's not about us having to be careful not to trigger them, we have to check in with ourselves and ask when we're talking to Gen Zers Are we the ones being triggered. So when they're talking about anxiety, which is something when I was their age in the 80s and 90s, I'd never even heard the term, let alone I wasn't allowed to talk about it, as well as a ton of other issues that they're dealing with, you know, when Agenzia is talking to me about issues of mental health, or, you know, LGBTQ i A plus or race or whatever that is, am I the one being triggered, because I've been in a lot of rooms with a lot of adults, and it's the adult side recognize that I think are they're the ones being triggered, because they weren't allowed to be so expressive, and they were once upon a time dealing with those things. And now it's all coming back. It's almost in a sense, like a PTSD thing. I think when we recognize that, one of the best things we can do is not not go deeper in but actually share that with the Gen Zers. And talk about our own journeys. And I know that that's been helpful when I've been talking to Gen Zers, in helping them to better understand the older adults in their worlds, whether it's parents, teachers, coaches, employers, you name it.
Andy Earle
So often, it's, they start talking about all of this stuff that we don't know what to do with it, it makes us feel uncomfortable. Our response a lot of times is almost to minimize it, or try to, like make it not a big deal. So she kind of like move on to like more comfortable topics. And and then it's like it creates a class where then it's like, well, what No, you're not hearing me, why are you not listening to me? And, and a lot of it, I think is what's really profound about what you're saying is that it's it's our inability to really go there to really get to the level that they're on, that's driving the problem, not not them, not being able to handle the conversation. Yeah. And
John Schlimm
the thing to remember is, you know, no one's to blame here. I think we we got to get away from this blame game, you know, and I certainly don't want the parents out there who are listening to us thinking that we're trying to put blame on them or teachers who are listening or employers or any other adults who live or work with Gen Zers. It's about understanding this dynamic and really checking in with ourselves and, and look the first time that this really hit me and I understood this unique dynamic. Several years ago in my classroom, I would hear my students talking about their parent, and you know, there are so many good parents out there. So thumbs up to all of the amazing parents who are listening to us keep rocking it, you know, but there are some that maybe need a little work we all need a little work. So in addition to the good things I would hear my students talking about their parents being judgmental and closed minded and homophobic and you name MIT, I would hear these things. And the first thing that struck me is, so I'm a Gen X. Err, I'm a proud Gen Xers I bet a lot of the parents out there are of these teens. And it, the first thing that struck me is oh my gosh, for the first time in my teaching career, I'm the age of my students, parents. You know, when you start out, it's like, okay, you're kind of like the older brother. And then maybe it's like, okay, maybe you're like the uncle. And then suddenly, you're like, oh, my gosh, I'm now their parents age. But what I did is, in my mind, I'm like, Okay, now I understand who their parents are, their parents are mostly accessors, or those who are just on the cusp, you know, on the x Boomer cusp, or millennial x cos. And so I was able to sit down with them. And I'm like, Okay, guys, you know, you say that your parents are closed minded, and judgmental, and homophobic and all these different things. Now that I understand who your parents are, from a generational perspective, you have to realize when they were your age, when I was your age, we weren't allowed to talk about these things, whether it was at home or school or in the community, we certainly didn't have social media or any of that. So basically, we bottled these things out. And now all these years later, they have all of you who are so wonderfully open and comfortable in sharing these, and unlike I think some of the adults in your life, just they don't know quite what to do with that. And it's not an excuse, but maybe part of this equation is you understanding that, and letting them know that you understand that it because it's really a team effort. And the students just sort of lit up it like this, like whole new perspective on like, oh, okay, it's not that my parents are angry Are these like old folks who don't understand, they went through a lot of the same things I'm going through. And that's kind of a point of connection there.
Andy Earle
You talk a lot about the importance of vulnerability, and how we need to get more vulnerable, and communicating with Gen Z, and even just what you just said, about sort of walking them through how these kinds of conversations are really hard for me, because when I was a kid, I didn't talk about this stuff, I don't have any of these skills, and, and affirming them about how, how great it is that they are able to do that. And just sharing, sharing kind of your struggles, I always think is really powerful, and, and gets you some more grace, maybe when you're when you're not doing things perfectly. Well,
John Schlimm
you know, and I promise you that it's not, they're not going to think less of you, if you actually, if anything, their respect for you, and their understanding of you, is just going to grow, and they're actually, you know, going to see you as more human. I think sometimes we tend to look at our parents as well as other older adults, and we don't even really think of them as human. They're just like these, like sort of authority figures. And I think it's important for them to see that you are a human being. And you know, and look, that's not easy, you know, I you know, so I get it, I understand it. I mean, it was a long time before I publicly talked about my lifelong journey with anxiety, you know, a term I didn't even hear until probably the last 1015 years. So I didn't even know what like that ground ball of glass turning in my chest even was, but once I started to understand it's oh my gosh. So I think you're going to be able to relate more to those young people in your life, if you're able to have these discussions. And you know, and they're not going to be weird, you know, don't make the discussions weird, like just person to person.
Andy Earle
But so do we have to be more woke in order to have good conversations with Gen Z?
John Schlimm
I feel like that's a question. I don't even want to touch with a 10 foot pole. First of all, you know, you would have to define what woke even is like I get it. But I think so many people have so many different perspectives. And there again, I don't think it's about you've got to be woke or you've got to be this you've got to be that you've got to be willing to just sit down and have the conversation and have it in a respectful way and without judgment. And it doesn't mean that you have to okay everything they say or even agree with them. And look if you don't agree with something, or more importantly, you don't understand, like there's a difference. There's a difference between I don't understand why you're saying you're transgender or why you're saying you're depressed. There's a difference between that and I don't approve, you know, okay, let's Let's pull back and just have a discussion. You know, I love it when I sit down with groups of really any age, but especially Gen Zers. And maybe, you know, they're into something that I just don't understand. I can't wrap my head around it. I love just asking them questions. And this really happened with the video gamers in originally in my class and now across the country like, because, look, I grew up with PacMan. Pong, right? But I tell me, you know, I'm not a video game player. If I tell young people, if you want to beat someone, every time asked me to play with you, you will, I promise you will win every single time. But what the Gen Z gamers have taught me, because I asked him because I listened to him because I didn't automatically assume, Oh, you're rotting your brains. And you're sitting in your dark basement and bla bla, bla, bla, you look, I'm sure that stereotype exists. It always does exist someone out there. But what they've taught me is Wow, gamers are not only using the skills that I'm about to mention, but they're also honing them strategic thinking, critical thinking social emotional skills, communication skills, like I was like, Wait, you mean you're communicate when you're playing these games, you're playing with people all around the world, like, I just couldn't grasp it. And then I'm like, That's amazing, you know, and just the visual, the way that that's feeding their creativity. And I, you know, and I'm backed up on this, luckily, by not only the US military, but also major corporations, who are now actively recruiting Gen Zers, to come work for them, because they see that they have the skills that they can put to work for the military, as well as corporations to move us ahead. So I am a huge proponent of the gamers out there, you know, and they're one of the groups that they get more stereotypes and a lot of the other groups but and they love it, when you show them the love and actually take an interest in it. Even they actually, you know, because now that I understand this, I come across gamers, I'll say these things. And they're like, really, like they didn't even realize the amazing education they're getting by by just doing something they love
Andy Earle
it seems like video games get a bad rap. Older people we like to sort of demonize them and how much of a terrible influence it is and violent and waste of time. But yeah, there's, there's so much there. And, and just I love this attitude that you keep talking about of engaging and asking questions, and learning more something that really ties into video games. And I thought it was interesting in your book is sleep schedules, because you talk about the sleep schedules of Gen Z, and a lot of times maybe related to video gaming, or other things that they do it late at night. Well,
John Schlimm
and look before you know, I perpetuate a stereotype even further, I've actually come across a lot of Gen Zers. Who tell me, I'm in bed by nine o'clock. Okay, so there are chances that you know nothing about this generation, or the rest of us is one size fits all, you know, they even though you know I love to talk about them as a generation, we can never forget that. They're each individual's first, just like we are right. But you know, this was really hit home for me. So I was teaching a one o'clock class and a student missed that class on a Tuesday. So he comes in Thursday, and he's like, I am so sorry, I missed your class on Tuesday, I overslept. And by now you can tell my classroom is pretty laid back. All right. So you know, I don't scream and carry on. I've learned to pick my battles. And so I just sort of chuckled and I'm like, the class starts at one. And he's like, Yeah, I was up all late up all night. And so that started this, you know, amazing new pathway of discussion. I love to have a Gen Z is like, well, what are you doing up all night? Because again, I think as older adults, we're like, oh, they're wasting their time on, you know, video games and social media. Not not always true. You know, a lot of them will tell me they're actually doing their homework. Now, you could say, well, you should do it earlier. Okay, let's, you know, or, you know, a few have even told me, they're up late at night, because they're on the phone with a friend who's going through, you know, a mental health issue, and they're there for that friend. One young woman I met in Connecticut told me she even though she's dealing with her own mental issues, she sleeps with her phone on by her bedside, because she wants any of her friends who are all dealing with issues to be able to call her at any time of the day or night. Let me just put that out there. So there's many reasons why they're up all night. And of course, one of them is video games. But I have to say like video games is maybe fourth or fifth on the list of why these kids are up all night, which is why I'm advocating Waiting for colleges to have 2am classes.
Andy Earle
Let's cater to everybody sleep schedule. And I'm
John Schlimm
telling you, I think the first campus that adopts this, it will be the most popular class on campus and you will go viral for it,
Andy Earle
I totally think so I could really see a lot of people signing up for that just for the novelty of having a class at 2am, if not anything else.
John Schlimm
Right. And look, if this is when they're up, you're, you're not going to make them go to bed early by yelling at them, or you will never win that battle. You know, it's just like, you know, years ago, all young people were on Facebook, and then their parents all got on. So the young kids jumped to Instagram, and then the parents jumped to Instagram, and then you're never going to win that battle. So in addition to like the sleep battle, you're not going to win, like the social media racy that they're always going to figure out how to beat you at that. But yeah, I love the idea of a 2am class, and any university wants to do it, I'd be open to come in and teaching it for you.
Andy Earle
It's easy to say, Hey, your kid is like tired, because they were up all night. And it's like, well, what? Well, you should have gone to bed. And why didn't you and we got it? Well, from now on, we're going to not sleep with your phone. We're taking that out of your room. And, and we miss like this opportunity to be like, what? What's going on? Like, what what, you know, is everything okay? Or why were you up all night? Or I don't know, just engaging and like asking more questions. And maybe it's some of the stuff you were talking about? Or who knows? Just but but I think so often, we kind of just we just shut things down? Well, when
John Schlimm
I sort of float the 2am class it, which is always fun to float, because you can imagine that reaction, the kids love it, like they're all over it. But when I float this especially to, you know, K through 12 teachers, I'm not sure this would work for the K through 12. High School, maybe but you know, certainly college professors and administrators when I float it to them, they all just kind of laugh and you know, roll their eyes, except for a few who are the really cool ones. And like, Oh, I think I could get behind that. But I'm like, Okay, you think that's silly, but yet you have 8am classes. That's insane. And so we expect college kids, I don't care if it of any age, like I don't know when ADM classes started. But like we expect them to get out of bed. They haven't some of them haven't even been to bed yet. Okay. Like, I have never agreed to teach an 8am class, even 9am is pushing it. But okay, I'll give that to you. But it's like, I think ADM is more insane than and even high schools. Like, you know, I've spent a lot of time over the last year in our local high schools here, which has been great. They now start around 730. And I'm like, when did this happen? When you know, and it used to be like the first bell would be at 8am. But okay, it's high school. And you know, the day it has to start at some point, I guess. But I'm like, when is this now? 730? Like, wouldn't it be nicer if we maybe started at nine and just tack an extra half hour on at the end?
Andy Earle
That would make sense. To me. Even when I was in high school, like the thing everybody wants to do was to get no first period class. So you could sleep in a little bit and go up at 930 or whatever the deal is, and about there as actual research that the circadian rhythm shifts this biologically during adolescence. And we want to go to sleep later and wake up later and pack onto that the generational things that are happening with today that that's that's just when they sleep. Right? You mentioned also the social media race of jumping from one thing to the next network, and we're always kind of behind. I think that's so true. And you write in the book about fenced us, yes,
John Schlimm
these these secret Instagram accounts that so many of these years have and, and look just like probably any of the parents, teachers, other adults out there who are listening. When I first it was sort of like when Snapchat first came on. And when Snapchat first came, it was well documented that images were being sent that shouldn't be sent. Because, you know, everyone thought, oh, they disappear after 30 seconds. Everyone forgot about these screenshots that loud, you know, people can take within those 30 seconds or 10 seconds or whatever it was. Same thing with Pinterest. I remember, you know, hearing about for instance, like, oh, no, what's being shared? What are they doing on pin stuff? So you know what, rather than jump to conclusions and run around with my hair on fire, which we adults are so good at, right? We one of the best things we're, we're good at? I asked you know, and again, I've asked Gen Zers across the country, like what's up with the fences, and by and large, they will tell me, this isn't about sending inappropriate materials. To there are images and other content to their friends, it's about them just being able to be who they authentically are. And now, you know, maybe the sad part of that is they don't feel they can always be that way on regular social media, because they maybe feel like you've got to keep up with something or just not even be there. But you know, the good news about the fenced is, this is about like, one kid told me, I like to just share silly jokes that no one else is gonna get, but my friend, and he's like, that's what I do on my fence stuff. Another one is like, I just I post goofy photos of myself, just for my friends to see. So it's really the you know, and that's not to say, for instance, not being abused in some way. Everything gets abused sooner or later. Um, but I think by and large, you know, the Gen Zers. Out there, it's just them being able to connect in one more way with their friends. So, you know, sit down with your kids, your students, whoever the gens ears around, ask them, Do you have a fin stuck? Now, they might say no. And you might just have to let that go. Because you never gonna find out what it is. I'm telling you that right now. Unless they, you know, say yes. And, and even if they say yes, please don't ask how can I follow you? Because if they haven't been, they don't want you there. They don't want you to do. It's not for you. And I kind of caught you know, I know a lot of people my age, your age, who also have been sick counts. Now I have yet to ask them what they're posting. I'm kind of afraid to ask that question.
Andy Earle
We're here with John Schlimm, talking about how to have deeper and more meaningful conversations with Generation Z. And we're not done yet. Here's a look at what's coming up in the second half of the show.
John Schlimm
When it comes to a parent child relationship, there's really nothing that simple. In Erica, it's simple. But it really is about checking in with yourself and saying, Do I respect this young person? Do I really, and look, you've got to have that honest conversation with yourself because you can think you are the coolest parent on the planet. And look, I love that. But at the end of the day, you've got to have that serious conversation, because what you might realize is, oh, there is sort of a point where maybe I'm not respecting them. So you know, when you show respect to Gen Zers, they can sense that they don't need all of the whatever woke means, you know, like, they don't need you to pretend you're cool using their language when you don't know it. They certainly don't need judgment. All they want is you to listen. And to show them respect. I love sitting down with with groups, young people like what are sort of the words that you use and why. And I love when they make up like when it's not even taking a word and kind of changing the definition. But they'll create a whole new word. And that's so fascinating to me. And so it's great to be like, Well, why do you use that word in what context? And they love sharing that with you? Because first of all, you're acknowledging there's something creative about playing with language like that, right? So have that fun discussion with them. And even if you think like, don't be afraid to say, Well, that seems a little odd to me. But don't say it with judgment, just say it with this is who I don't get it. Okay, well, they probably knew that to begin with. That's another losing battle, because the, the language is always changing. I had a really eye opening light bulb moment, a few years ago, my main connecting point with Gen Z was how open and courageous they are in talking about their mental health. I'm even talking about their suicide attempts in the past. Like, it's extraordinary how open they are with that. So that was one of the first things I really was talking to groups of older adults about trying to help them to understand. And then one day, my best friend who, who probably was a little tired of hearing me talk about Gen Z all the time. He's like, he said, Look, you know, I hear you talking about how open and courageous they are about mental health than why do they have the highest suicide rate of any generation in history, and it was this amazing punch to the gut moment. And it really took my breath away. But then I realized both of those things can be true. And I think for some reason, we get it in our head that only one of those can be true. And you know which one's going to win out every time. It's this like really disturbing statistic job
Andy Earle
out here. Yeah, totally. They are problems. They're screwed up. Yeah,
John Schlimm
right. I mean, that's always going to be the headline, unfortunately, that that media lead with, but I'm like, You know what? Both things can be true. I'm comfortable saying I don't know why.
Andy Earle
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