Talking To Teens: Expert Tips for Parenting Teenagers

Andy Earle
Hey, it's Andy from talking to teens, it would mean the world to us. If you could leave us a five star review, reviews on Apple and Spotify help other parents find the show. And that helps us keep the lights on. Thanks for being a listener. And here's the show. You're listening to talking to teams where we speak with leading experts from a variety of disciplines about the art and science of parenting teenagers. I'm your host, Andy Earle.

A, we're here today with Pam Lobley, talking about doing nothing. Kids today spend a lot of their time doing stuff. And as parents, I think we feel a lot of pressure to keep them constantly scheduled and on track. But Pam started to wonder if all that is really necessary. And if all of that is really good for our kids. So she decided to conduct her experiment one summer, and transport her family back to the 1950s. It didn't exactly work out quite how she planned. But she did learn a lot. And she wrote a fantastic book about it. called Why can't we just play. Pam started her career as a comedic actress performing in clubs and theaters all over New York City. She's written several plays. And her humor columns have appeared in many newspapers and online. And she's the author of two other books as well. Better Living Through chaos. And you definitely know you're a mom, when really excited to speak with Pam today about the pressures that so many families feel to be doing it all, and how we can stay sane, and raise great kids, despite all the madness. Pam, thank you so much for coming on the show today.

Pam Lobley
Thank you so much. I'm very excited to be here. Wow,

Andy Earle
I got done reading your book. And it was really a blast from the 1950s. And really interested in this concept that you have this experiment that you did, of almost trying to take your family back in time. Walk me through the thought process or what led you to try this.

Pam Lobley
Okay, so the book that we're talking about is a memoir of a time when my two children, my two sons were 10, and seven years old. And at that time, they were We were very busy family, like all families are with a lot of scheduled activities, too many scheduled activities. And I was really feeling the pressure. And my husband was really feeling the pressure. I can remember one night, rushing through all the activities and getting them through their dinner, and there are our dinner and bath routine. And it was just collapsed in the living room at about nine o'clock and said, We've got to be doing something wrong. We should not be this stressed out. And this exhausted. We don't even have teenagers yet. Right? It's supposed to be the easy part of childhood where they're 789 10. And they're in a routine and there's not a lot of pressure, etc. And yet, we were just exhausted all the time. And the thing that I think it took me a while to notice was that our kids were exhausted and stressed also. So during that same period, I was tucking two kids into bed one night, all the little, you know, reading and good night routine that we had. And my older son who was 10 at the time, burst into tears and said, I never have time to just play. Now, I felt like I gave him lots of opportunities to play. I mean, he did all these activities, he played soccer and we stayed after school, he would play on the playground. And I mean, from a parent's point of view, it seemed like he had tons of social activities, tons of friends and fun things, always something going on. But what I realized is what he meant by play was, I have a friend in the backyard and we do whatever we want. We're not supervised by a parent. I'm not told it's my turn. It's not a scheduled sports game. It's not a guided artistic activity. We're goofing around, and probably your age, my age, we remember that as a big part of our childhood. just goofing around with your friends. If you looked back in you at your childhood said, Gosh, what did we do? You wouldn't even know what to say. You know, we goofed around the neighborhood. We made up stuff in the backyard. We had pillow fights in his bedroom. I mean, whatever it was. So that's what was missing from their lives. And I realized I really needed to of course, I felt awful. I really needed to take a step back and evaluate our life and what kind of childhood was I providing for my children. So that was the impetus of Let's get off the merry go round and see how We could do better. And then in terms of the 1950s, I have a friend who has a good sense of humor. And I was talking with her one day and during this period and thinking, Well, what should we do over the summer? Let me ask my friends, what are you signing your kids up for, etcetera. And I asked my friend, Jane, and she said, nothing. We're having a summer from the 1950s. And you know, she's funny, she's sarcastic. But to me, I thought, Well, why couldn't? That was it. So that's kind of how it all started.

Andy Earle
I love that. And it's funny because I had this revelation, at what point in high school or something that like, the best days were the days when, like, school got canceled, or like, I think that's why we love snow days so much, because it's like you, all of a sudden, everything is canceled. Everything that you had put, you can't go anywhere. You know, I don't know, I grew up in Portland, where if it snows an inch, it's like the whole everybody freaks out. People. That's all it's the only thing on the news. It's like, no, don't please people stay home, do not drive. But But there's something about that, or like a school cancellation day or something where my parents would go to work. And like, I would just taught the entire day to myself to just do whatever I wanted in or do nothing or watch cartoons for two hours and then get to where my sweatpants all day. And

Pam Lobley
and think about it. You didn't have screens? Yeah,

Andy Earle
right. Oh, no, yeah, I had to find things to do to entertain somebody, or something. But I also realized how much of a novelty it was to have that feeling or how much of a luxury that was because so much of my life felt like constantly scheduled. And there's always a list of things to do, and that you don't really have that space. But I think it's just, I mean, I think it's important for all of us. It will be to find more of that in my adult life, but especially for children. Yes,

Pam Lobley
100%. And it's funny that you say that about the snow days, because my husband always says even now, those were his favorite days as an adult when the kids were growing up, when the call would come in, and it was a snow day. And he couldn't go to work. He wasn't going to work and the kids and it was just this huge gift. And it's interesting how we play so much value on that. But we don't give that gift to ourselves.

Andy Earle
Oh, right. Right. We're so glad when it just happens. And when we get that, but why don't we plan it or

Pam Lobley
I don't wake it up. And that's right. And I think that's kind of what I was thinking, My gosh, if I can't, if you can't have that as a child, what is going on. So I think that's why I really felt like it was important for me to give my kids pressure free, schedule free time to be kids. And to not have to always, you know, there's two sides to that. One is that it's the pressure of the schedule. It's the pressure of being on time paying attention, taking your turn, all those things that you have to do. And then also the lack of freedom of just like, let me just lay on my back and stare at the clouds. And no one's going to tell me I'm wasting time, no one's going to tell me that I should be doing something else. I can just do that for an hour and make up a story about the clouds or wherever my imagination takes me. And I feel a little bit sad that I think that's really hard to put that into a kid's world these days. I don't think we make a lot of space for that. We

Andy Earle
don't like we feel guilty or bad if something like that. Because would they were our kids are falling behind or we did all the other kids. They're doing this and that activity and they're working with this and that coach tutor and you know, helpful. Exactly right. So yep, it's like we want them to have a great life and to have everything. And so our way of helping them to get that or making sure they get that is to just like constantly throw things at them or have them be constantly doing things.

Pam Lobley
Yes, I think that the way we parent now is to it's like they're adults in training. I better get used to it. Here's the schedule, here's the pressure. And I don't think there's a recognition that childhood is different from adulthood. It should be a totally different phase of your life, in my opinion. And let me be clear, I'm no expert. I'm just a mom, who's lived a few years. But I just think that I think we do them a disservice when we abbreviate their childhood. I understand what you're saying it's done out of love and concern. We so desperately want our children to be successful in life. Whatever that looks like for us. us. And I think for most of us, it looks like a good college, a good career with a stable income. And so we have this fear that's really hard to get. Unless from like, eight, seven, we've got them in training of tutors and coaches and all this other stuff. And I don't know how you stop that fear. I don't know it's hard. Yeah,

Andy Earle
well, because there is a trade off of you know, you take them off the treadmill, then they are not doing all those things that all the other kids are doing. And if that's the game that they need to play, then it's kind of a balance, you feel everything feels so important, or so

Pam Lobley
everything feels so important. That's a great way to say it, we don't feel like yeah, this Saturday, we could just do nothing, or this whole summer, we could just do nothing, and it would be fine. But you know, I'll say one thing, I do feel that when the kids get to be teens, it is different, I think they need a busy schedule of their own interest. Because the whole thing about childhood is you need time to play, there's a certain type of play, independent, free play, you don't do that when you're 15. I mean, maybe you'll stare at the clouds a little but you're not going to go out in the backyard and put on a cape and have a sword fight probably when you're 18. So you do need those other outlets, music and sports or whatever those things are. And my kids were very busy in the teen years, I tried to give them the empty space in childhood, but by the time they got to teens, they were very busy. And I think it was healthy. So there is a time for that pressure. But I don't think it starts at six years old. Yeah.

Andy Earle
Interesting, also, the way of socializing transitions, where in is kids can just play or let's just play, I want to just have a friend over and play, then kind of I don't know, really, when that happens around early adolescence, tween years that kind of, you can't really just play anymore.

Pam Lobley
added something I think it gets self conscious to about who are your friends are, you know, are you in the right group? And then and I think, too, I noticed a lot of disparity in maturity. in betweens, like, for instance, my older son, Sam, he would have put on a cape and fought in the backyard with a sword, well into the age of 13. Absolutely. But there were other probably boys who were 13, who stopped that at 10. They didn't want to do that anymore. So you kind of have to find your people, like who's kind of likes to do the same things that I like to do at my age, and hanging out with them. And then that gets complicated by but I want to be in the cool group or I want to it's

Andy Earle
but yeah, that's really all those pressures that kind of start creeping in. And it's interesting thinking about this idea of going back to the 1950s. And it's like this time when the heyday of like this nuclear family, and these, like just long summer days of just playing outside with other kids and everything like that. But, you know, in a lot of ways, probably there were just different pressures, or

Pam Lobley
I think for kids, if you were lucky enough to be in a nuclear family in a safe neighborhood, it was probably great. But I think in terms of our you know, and I talked about this in the book, our idealization of the 50s, of course, is ridiculous, they had plenty of problems, I don't think it was much fun to be a woman who really couldn't work in that people did work. But there was a stigma around women working you were supposed to stay home, etc. So I don't want to over idealize the 50s, I was really going more for the the mythological 50s as opposed to the actual, the 50s. But the one thing I learned about the 50s that I think is true today was the amount of conformity and we know that about the 50s it's kind of a joke, right? That everybody you know, had that house with that one car and etc. But if you look at it today, there's the exact same amount of conformity. We think we're all so free and you know, go our own way. But in terms of parenting, everybody's doing the same thing. We're all signing our kids up for peewee sports at the age of four. We're all really sweating out the college things. I mean, and as you just said earlier, and if you don't, you feel like you're failing your child, you feel like you're falling behind. So that's conformity. If I don't do what everybody else is doing, then I'm going to somehow like be in trouble. Well, that's conformity. So I think it really helped me to recognize the level of conformity that we all live with and say, Wow, okay, maybe I don't have to. Maybe I don't Have to do that. And then it will be okay if I don't.

Andy Earle
So talk to me a little more about this actual summer that you orchestrated. And did your kids have like chores to do how much nothing to do was really happening.

Pam Lobley
So they were seven and 10 at the time. And then they both turned eight and 11. During the course of that, I regret to say, I did not give them a lot of chores, that is the failing of mine as a mother. And I'll be the first to admit it. They had some chores. I mean, they were supposed to make their bed in the morning, and but in general, the our routine would go like this, they would get up early, they were early risers in those days, and I would let them turn the TV on, this book takes place in this summer of 2008. So they didn't have iPads, we didn't have smartphones, for them. So even though we had TV with Cartoon Network, it was not quite the same as it is now with that level of screen usage. And working as a writer, so they would play in their pajamas in front of the TV, in the living room, blocks and Legos. And whatever you do when you're that age, and you build stuff, until about 11. And that's when I would write so yes, I would use the TV as a babysitter, I would get my writing done. And then around 11 o'clock, that was it. And we would turn off the TV and get dressed and we would try to go outside. So we have a town pool that we joined, we would go there. Maybe we go to a playground. And that was pretty much the day until dinner every day. So I can hear parents thinking like my gosh. And yeah, it was hard. The hardest thing about it honestly, was that there were no other families doing the same thing. And so most of the time, it was hard for us to find friends to play with. If we went to the town pool, at least 50% of the time, there'd be a gang of kids they could hook up with and have a great time. So that would be great. But sometimes there wouldn't be or sometimes it rained. So then we would try to have friends over. I would arrange playdates. And in terms of the play dates, I just didn't supervise them. You guys go out in the backyard. You guys go. And you're I mean, obviously making sure they're not burning anything down. But other than that, I just tried to let them play however, they wanted to play and not judge them. So one year, my younger son got a flip. Remember those flip cameras, they had their heyday for like a short time, he got a flip camera for his birthday. And he and his friend in the bedroom, they were probably like nine, just they would one would get into bed and pile all the stuffed animals on top of him underneath. And the other one would walk in with the camera and surprise him and he jumped up and animals would fly everywhere. And then they would laugh. And then they would watch the movie. And then they would do the whole thing. Oh, yeah, of course the ball. Oh, how fun is that? So when I mean, that was adorable and funny. But when they did stuff like that, I would resist the urge to think you should be working on your tennis stroke. I don't know why we're not doing a math packet. Like it's okay to spend the whole day pretending you're Spider Man, or making a silly movie. They weren't little Spielberg's, they weren't thinking like, I'm gonna go to film school. So I'm practicing that we wasn't like that we're just being silly. So when they did their silly behavior, I tried to just not judge it and not be involved. And the one other thing about this summer was, it was as much for myself as for them. Because as a parent, I think maybe everybody can relate to it gets so exhausting scheduling your children's days and supervising them. This was an aspect of parenting that I was not prepared for is that from the time they wake up till the time they go to bed, they need something to do. And it's your job to figure out what that should be. It's like, this is ridiculous. I don't have this much bandwidth to figure out. This is why people sign their kids up for activities. So for me to just say like, look, you're in the backyard, if you're bored. If you're, you know, doing whatever. I'm just gonna let it go because I'm tired of figuring it out for you. You can plan it, I trust you to plan it.

Andy Earle
What are the novelty remembering that feeling of what should I do? Nothing to do or nothing to worry devoid to work on or like no responsibilities. I remember asking my mom or what should I do? What do I do? Or sayings? Find something productive to do? Figure it out.

Pam Lobley
I know that feeling of not having anything to do. I feel like that's uniquely childlike. Because like you said, I can't remember the last time I felt like that. Certainly not since high school. Crazy.

Andy Earle
Yes, even Doing this whole summer with your family and with your kids, if we're not going to do anything. You're still doing a lot as a parent. Yeah,

Pam Lobley
it's great, though. Yes, still going to the grocery store and putting dinner on the table and working and doing whatever things are happening. Absolutely.

Andy Earle
You talk about, like the beach trip that you take for a week and the every summer and preparing for that, and preparations that start at least a week before you actually leave and getting the car ready and getting making sure you have first aid supplies in case anybody, you have to think of every possible thing that could happen and kind of prepare for all that. And so even things that seem like this carefree weekend at the beach of doing nothing can turn into a lot of thinking and planning for

Pam Lobley
parents. Yeah, I think any parent will tell you how much work vacation is. It's the vacations that we took before we had kids were vacations that my friends and I sometimes will say well, don't call it a vacation, call it a family trip. Because that's really what it is. You know, and the other thing too, like we'd be at the beach, you got to watch your children. They can't go out too far in the ocean. And they, you know, there's all the other things, not just boredom, but are they being safe, are they I don't know, whatever the things are on vacation one I talked about in the book, we learned to ride a bike on one time. So that's a job teaching your child to ride a bike, or so. Of course, they're wonderful, and we created great memories. But I think it's important too, for all parents to admit that it's a lot of work, getting ready and going on vacation. It's worth it. You're making memories that will last but yeah, the laundry, the pre laundry, and then the post laundry.

Andy Earle
We're here with Pam Lobley talking about doing nothing. And we're not done yet. Here's a look at what's coming up in the second half of the show.

Pam Lobley
Once they get to 18, you don't really have much control. And No parent wants to hear that because that is freakishly frightening. But the fact is, it's kind of true. And so if you can, like practice not controlling a little bit while they're growing up, maybe it's easier. I don't know. But for me personally, it felt really good to just let go a little bit, let go of so many external expectations. And say like, Okay, well, you know what, a lot of those other boys are getting great at baseball this summer. We're not, we're not and we're never going to because they don't really care about baseball. So that's okay. So letting go is good. I don't really know how we got here, how our entire generation of parenting has wrapped our own identity up so deeply in our children, because your parents probably didn't raise your life. I mean, they, of course, they wanted us to do well, and they did everything they could to raise us, right. But I don't get the feeling it was the same thing. And I think that is the root of that and the fear, the fear that they're not going to get enough, get ahead, have a good life. And then maybe we're afraid of what that would say about us. If our kids could turn out well, it must be our fault. There's a whole lot of judgment. And so you have to be ready to let it roll off your back, you know, somehow not take it in. And also I think maybe recognize that judgment is coming from their own fear. Wow, if you let your kid play all summer, and it's fine. Then what does that say about Dan? Did I have to spend all that money on all those activities? Could I have done that? Like, we're so worried that we're doing it wrong, that when somebody else makes a different choice than us, I think it terrifies us. My mom always said she said, You know, when you guys were little there was a general consensus of what was appropriate for children. And what was adults there was like a really clear boundary. And most adults 90% of adults agreed with that. a respectful way that a kid should talk to an adult, that type of behavior, et cetera, et cetera. And TV was another one of those there just wasn't an opportunity. The boundary was built in now. There's no boundaries around anything. Kids are allowed to address people in certain ways and have certain types of behavior. I mean, you talk to teachers, they would say it's very hard to manage their classrooms these days. And then the whole entertainment, I mean, and now it's not just TV, it's the internet. So you're literally you are the gatekeeper between your child and all that stuff.

Andy Earle
Why don't you have the full interview, sign up for a subscription today, you get access to all the interviews I've conducted, as well as new episodes weeks before the general public. It's completely affordable and your subscription helps support the work we do here at talking to teens thanks for listening I'll see you next time