Ep 246: What to Say to Get Your Way
Andy Earle
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And here's the show. You're listening to talking to teams where we speak with leading experts from a variety of disciplines about the art, and science of parenting teenagers. I'm your host, Andy Earle.
We're here today with Jonah Berger talking about how to get your way with your teenager. It turns out that there are certain words that just tend to work better than others when we're trying to convince people to do what we want. And Dr. Jonah Berger has spent years researching those words. And now he's written a book about it. We're going to talk about what the research shows on how we can change the way we phrase things to get better results with our teenagers. And we're also going to see that the ways we're phrasing things right now might actually be backfiring. All that and more is coming up on the show today. Dr. Berger, thank you so much for being here.
Jonah Berger
Thanks so much for having me back.
Andy Earle
Hey, this is really exciting. As soon as I saw your new book, I was so intrigued. It's called magic words, what to say to get your way. And I know a lot of parents of teenagers wondering what to say, to get their way with their teenagers. So really interested to dive into this one?
Jonah Berger
Fantastic.
Andy Earle
What was it about that topic that you said, Hey, I gotta write a book because this is now you've written a few books on other different topics. What made you think, hey, the next one's got to be about words or language.
Jonah Berger
You know, I don't have to tell you that we use language all the time. Language is how we talk to our family members. It's how we send emails, it's how we make phone calls. At the office, it's how we make pitches or talk to colleagues, even our private thoughts rely on language. But while we spend a lot of time thinking about what we want to talk, so if we're talking to a teenager, for example, we might want to have a conversation about how they're doing in school or how their sports are going, or their friends, we thought about the topics we want to discuss, we often think a lot less about the particular words we want to use. And unfortunately, that's a mistake. Because subtle shifts in the language you use can have a big effect on our impact. Adding certain words, requests, for example, can make people about 50% more likely to say yes. Rather than saying we like something saying we recommend it makes other people about a third more likely to take a recommendation. And in everything from the language of email to the language people use in a variety of other contexts, leave behind subtle but important clues about who they are and what they're likely to do in the future. And so it's clear that language is important. How can we harness it? And so that's what the book is all about, really, what are these magic words? And how can we take advantage of their power?
Andy Earle
And you kind of categorize them or something, you go through all these different ways that language can influence us. But they really kind of fall into certain categories or buckets. Yeah,
Jonah Berger
so in doing work in this area, as well as looking at others work in the air, I found that there are six key types of language six sort of key buckets of magic words that increase are impacted variety of different ways. And so I put those six in a framework, it's called the Speak framework. It's an acronym The S stands for the language of similarity and difference, the P stands for the language of posing questions. The E stands for the language of emotion, the A stands for the language of agency and identity. The first C stands for the language of confidence. And the second C stands for the language of concreteness. And for those who are following along going, Wait a second, because speak doesn't end with two C's, it bends with a K. You're exactly right. I wasn't clever enough to come up with an acronym that ended with our K is one of the more difficult scrabble letters it turns out, so don't feel as bad. But hopefully the two c's will help make it even remember. Yeah,
Andy Earle
definitely sticks with me.
One thing you talked about in the book that's really interesting to me, is this idea of turning actions into identities. What does that mean?
Jonah Berger
Yeah, so first of all, stepping back just to talk about the bucket. That's a little bit you know, we often think about language as communicating ideas, what we want, what we want someone to understand information, but language also suggests what it means to engage in a particular action who's responsible Who's to blame and a variety of other things. And so it's important to understand this function of language and how it can communicate both agency and identity. And so in terms of specific aspects of language, communicating identity, there was a study done a number of years ago on how to persuade others. So some researchers at Stanford University, were interested in the language of persuasion, how can we encourage other people to do the right thing in different situations. So they went to a local preschool. And they asked four and five year old kids to do something that kids are sometimes a little bit reticent to do, which is help clean up a classroom. So there were crayons on the floor, there were books there were, you know, little trucks and various different things. And the researchers came in and they said, Hey, to the kids, I said, Hey, can you help clean up? But they didn't just say that exactly. To all the kids for about half the kids. They said, Hey, can you help clean up. And for the other half the kids, they tried a slightly different approach. Rather than asking people to help, they ask them to be a helper. Now, the difference between help and helper is quite small, you know, it's just adding two letters, and E and R at the end. But asking people to be a helper rather than help led to about a 30% increase in the likelihood that students helped up. And you could say, well, that's interesting. But that's just kids in a classroom, you know, would this would this apply to teenagers? would this apply to adults, even for more consequential behaviors, things that take more effort are more difficult. So a couple of years ago, some researchers followed up, and they looked at a much more consequential behavior, and that is voting. So they went to individuals, and they said, Hey, will you please go vote. But for half of them again, they tried to subtly different approach rather than ask them to vote, they asked him to be a voter. And again, the difference between votes and voter is quite small. Here's just a single letter adding an R to the end of the word vote, the adding that just that single letter, the letter R, led to about a 15% increase in people's likelihood of voting. And so the question you could ask is what gives right? Why is helper more impactful help? Why is voter more impactful that vote. And it turns out, exactly. As you alluded to, at the beginning, it comes down to the difference between actions and identities, right? We all know that we should take certain actions, we know that we should help and vote and do a variety of other things that are good and important and valuable. But we're busy. And we might not want to do those things, particularly if we're a teenager, and our parents are the one asking, but we care a lot more about and specific actions are holding desired identities. We all want to see ourselves as smart and efficacious and intelligent and a variety of other things. And so we engage in actions that allow us to feel like we hold those identities, right? If we want to feel athletic, we go for a run once in a while, if we want to feel like we know a bit about technology, we might read things on social media or you know, check out new tech gadgets. And so if actions become opportunities to claim desired identities, well, now we're much more likely to take those actions, right helping us fine, but being a helper being able to show myself and others that I am a helper. Well, now I'm much more likely to take action, right voting Sure, voting is a good thing, but showing myself and others that I am a voter now I'm much more likely to do it. And so by turning actions into identities, we can make people much more likely to take those actions. And so this is certainly powerful. persuading others, right thinking about it, when we want someone to do something, turn any actions into identities as a way to get them to do it. The same actually even holds on the negative side. Right? Losing is certainly bad, right? No one wants to lose, but being a loser is even worse.
Andy Earle
Oh gosh, yeah. Nobody wants that.
Jonah Berger
Yeah, you know, nobody wants to cheat on a test. Cheating is obviously bad. But being branded a cheater, would be even worse. And so research finds that when suddenly when cheating would make you a cheater, right? Well, now people are less likely to do it. And so if we want people to avoid undesired behavior, right, frame them as identities, not just actions. Think about that old anti littering campaign, they didn't just say don't litter, they said, don't be a litter bug. Hold on, I don't want to see myself as a litter bug. So now I'm less likely to litter and so by by turning these actions into identities, we can persuade others, we can even affect our own behaviors or the way that people are perceived. If I told you about two friends of mine, one who runs and one who is a runner. Who would you guess runs more often the person who runs or the person who is is a runner?
Andy Earle
Well, a runner obviously runs more. Yeah,
Jonah Berger
it seems like it's a part of who they are. Right? If I tell you someone drinks coffee, Saturday like coffee, if I say they're a coffee drinker, you go out here, they must really drink coffee. Oh my goodness. If they bake once in a while, okay, they like bake if they're a baker, it's part of who they are. And so if we want people to sort of take things or see others particular ways, we can describe them those ways. You know, think about describing someone who's a hard worker, rather than hard working. Now, it seems more like a stable part of who they are even the whole idea of being a creator, right or being an influencer. It's taken something that is really an action influence for creating something and made it seem more like a staple part of who people are right? Yeah, you
Andy Earle
turn it into a permanent label. Yeah, gotta stick it on the person.
Jonah Berger
Right now it seems like it's a much more like a full time job, it is part of who they are, they're going to do it in the future. It's a serious thing, not just an actual.
Andy Earle
Wow, yeah, I love that. And it's also strikes me that it what you're really doing is kind of making it really obvious how your actions reflect on who you are as a person. It really makes a you know, doing this and vocalizing it like that. It really makes you think about how the things that you do make up who you are. Yeah, and,
Jonah Berger
you know, I mean, we all care about actions, we certainly do. But But identities are even more important. You know, see, you know, think about teenagers, you see oneself as a gamer, or a theater kid or a jock, or, you know, those identities are so important. And so much of what people do is to gain or avoid those identities, right? You know, you don't want to do this thing, because it would make you not just have done that thing, but seem like a certain type of person. And so by using language to frame actions as identities, either desirable or undesirable identities, we can encourage people to take desired actions or avoid undesired.
Andy Earle
Also, you have this really interesting discussion in here on could versus should? And yeah, it got me thinking a lot about how a lot of times, our teenagers are wondering what they should do, or asking us for advice on whether they should do something or shouldn't do something. And I love kind of thinking about maybe using could,
Jonah Berger
yeah, so you know, imagine your son or daughter is trying to figure out what to do in a difficult situation with their friend at school. And, you know, you're trying to think about what you should do, or they're trying to think about what they should do, or, you know, maybe in their trouble, and they did something wrong, and they're trying to figure out what they should do. Or maybe they're trying to figure out how to deal with a difficult situation in a classroom. In these situations, we as problem solvers, as well, as helpers of problem solvers, often do exactly what you said, we think about what we should do, you know, hey, you're having a fight with a friend, what should you do in that situation? Hey, your son or daughter is in trouble. What should they do in that situation. And so we often think about what we should do. But a few years ago, researchers wondered, again, if language could help, if the words we use to talk about how to solve these problems might help us actually do a better job at solving them. And so they had people face a variety of different problems, you know, difficult things that were tough to get out of. And for some people, they encourage them to use the common approach to solve such problems. Right, they asked them to think about what they should do. Faced with this problem, think about what you should do, and then write down what you would do at the end. But for another set of people, they use a very subtle shift, rather than asking what they should do. They ask them what they could do. Now again, the difference between coat and shirt is pretty small, right? It's only a few different letters on the beginning of the word yet that small shift, led people to come up with much better solutions. People that come in, were encouraged to think about they could do rather than what they should do, came up with better and more creative solutions at the end. And if you think about why it's fascinating when we think about what we should do, we feel like there's only one answer, right? There's only one answer, we got to figure out what we should do. There's one right answer, I just have to figure it out. But sometimes we're stuck where nothing seems like the right answer. And so we don't look broadly. Whereas when we think about what we could do, icons really encourage us to widen our viewpoint a little bit, right, we don't just think about, there's one right answer, there are many things that we could do now, by the way, not all of them may be the right answer. Not all of them may be good courses of action. But by at least considering things more broadly, by thinking about what we could do more and more broadly, we're more likely to reach a better solution. In the end.
Andy Earle
I think so often, we get into black and white mode of only thinking there's kind of one possible course of action, or not kind of getting creative about potential solutions. And I love just that simple tool of kind of trying to catch yourself or notice when you're using the word should or when your teenager is using the word should I do this? Should I do that? Or trying to decide whether I should do this or that and kind of just then swapping it with good and it just feels better? It feels so much more creative? Or like there's so much more possibility? Certainly.
Jonah Berger
And again, I mean, I think it points to this, we're still talking about the language of agency and identity. And it points to how language can make us feel like we're more in control, right? When we're thinking about what we could do suddenly, we're not forced to do one particular thing we It seems like there are a bunch of options and we have to figure out kind of what's best for us. And so it puts us more in the driver's seat, helping us come up with a better solution overall. And one thing that found fascinating and particularly I think, useful for teenagers in situations where parents are Word of dealing with teens. You know, I remember when I was a teenager, and I often felt, you know, when I was giving a presentation at school, or doing something like that, I would often get very anxious, right? You know, you haven't done that many times before, you have to get up in front of an auditorium of people or a classroom and make a presentation. And I think a lot of young people struggle with those moments of anxiety, right? Or, you know, you don't have to get up in front of others, but you're just faced with a difficult assignment. Right? And you're struggling, and you know, you've never done it before. And you're trying to figure out how to solve that problem. And so, you know, often in those situations, we use very negative self what's called self talk, you know, we say, oh, you know, I'm going to screw this up, I don't know if I can do it, you know, I'm going to fail, what are people going to think about me, if I don't do a very good job, we talk to ourselves quite negatively. What's interesting, though, is if you look at how we would talk to a friend in that situation, right? Think about if our best friend was stuck in a similar situation, right? They were worried about how they were going to do on a test, or they were worried about a big presentation, what would we do, we probably come in and say you can do it, you know, you did it last time, you'll do such a great job, you know, you can do it because we're not as close to the situation. It's not us, it's somebody else, we can sort of take that distance. And we can be more helpful, we can see that yeah, you know, you did it last time, you're going to do it fine. And so one thing you might wonder, well, why can't we do this for ourselves? Right? Why can't we take that distance, or ourselves, when we're stuck in those situations and realize, you know, what we did do it last time, we shouldn't be able to do it this time. And part of the reason is, we're so close to it, right? We're so close to we have these negative emotional reactions. And so, so researchers from the University of Michigan wondered if they could again use language to to help people get out of this tough situation. And they had students, college students make a difficult presentation, they were told, Look, you have five minutes to make this presentation, think about your dream job, you know, you're going to do an interview with other people to see if you can get this job. And so obviously, students were, you know, quite anxious about how it was going to go. And for some of them, they told them to use the traditional approach of self talk, which is talk to yourself in the first person, right? You know, think about use words like AI and so on. But for another group of the students, they encourage them to see it, like a third person would, right like an outsider would saying things like, you know, you can do it or, you know, use the word you rather than I or similar use the person's name, right. So think about, you know, sometimes people talk about themselves in third person, they say, you know, I would say, oh, Jonah, you know, you messed up or Oh, Jonah, you can do it. And so what they found was interesting. So in both situations, people are anxious. But in the situation where people use that outside perspective, they use language like an outsider, they gave much better presentations, they were evaluated more positively, they did a better job, in part because they were less nervous. And the reason they were less nervous, is when you talk to yourself as an outsider, what it encourages you to take that outside perspective, it encourages you to see things like an outsider wouldn't say, you know, hey, Jonah, you can do it, right? You know, you did it last time, you can do this, you've got this, rather than saying I can't, rather than I'm gonna mess this up using that you language helps give us a little bit of distance from the situation, and do a better job as a result. That's
Andy Earle
so powerful, or also, I think, helps you actually kind of put it get an answer. Otherwise, a lot of times I think you're self taught can just kind of spin in circles. When you're asking questions. You're not even answering or thinking about, Oh, this is so terrible. Oh, this is so terrible. Or why do I have to do this? We want to put myself in this situation? Or why do I always do these things to myself and kind of like just are beating yourself up a little bit without really, actually getting any closer or getting anywhere? And by stepping back a little bit like that? And take getting rid of that? I? I think yeah, it kind of also helps you sort of put a stop to those cycles.
Jonah Berger
Yeah, and there's so much I think, in language that we don't realize, mean, even think about something like the word you write. So you know, I'm not a parent of a teenager. But I do have some young kids and, you know, when talking to others, we often use the word view. We say, you know, Hey, did you do your homework? Did you clean your room? Did you walk the dog to a spouse, you might say, did you make dinner? And often we use these words very non consciously, right? We're just asking a question. We want to know is the room cleaned? Did the dog get walked? You know, is there going to be dinner? Do I need to go make it but as a listener, right, if we're not careful, those use can feel really accusatory. Right? Somebody can feel like what do you mean? Why was it my job to walk the dog maybe my brother or sister should have walked the dog right in you walk the dog or you know what do you mean? Why didn't you know did you make dinner is how my responsibility why you notice got home? What are you talking about? Yeah. And so as accusatory us that we don't mean an accusatory way, but it can often sound quite accusatory when we really mean is did the dog get a walk? Right? You know, Is dinner ready? Or do we need to help with it? You know, we're really just looking for information even at the office. Right? Did that. Did you finish the report we're really asking is did the report get done? And so So we need to use the word you carefully, you can be great in some ways he was really good for grabbing attention. But you can also suggest blame, right? You can suggest responsibility. I did a big analysis a couple of years ago for a large consumer electronics firm looking at all their customer support pages. So you know, imagine you have a problem with your phone or your computer, and you go to their website, and you look up, you know, specific issue and some pages, say things like, oh, you know, if your phone breaks, you need to reboot your phone and then connect to this. And then you need to go do this, that and the other thing. And we found that the more that pages used your words like you all are, you're, the less helpful people found them. And was a bit surprising, could say, Well, why would the word you make pages feel less helpful, but when we dug deeper into it, what we realized is, people felt like, Wait, if it's using the word you a lot, people felt like they had to do the work. Right? You know, I have to reboot my phone and do all these other things. And but it's not my fault that the phone broke, right? It's kind of your phone, I paid the money for it, your phone broke, why is it my responsibility to do all this work. And so you can be great and powerful in positive ways. But it can also be really accusatory, it can suggest blame or responsibility in ways that we may not intend. And so when using words like you really need to think about who the audience is, and how it might impact.
Andy Earle
We're here with Jonah Berger, talking about some magic words parents can use to get their way with their teenagers. And we're not done yet. Here's a look at what's coming up in the second half of the show.
Jonah Berger
If we know that the test went well, and we know that something went pretty well, we're trying to reinforce them positively. Then make them feel like it went well for them. The test didn't just go well, if they did well. Right. On the other hand, if it didn't go well, right, we want to be really careful of saying they didn't do well. Instead saying the test didn't go well. Let's do it a little bit different distancing it from the self, right? I'm still smart and capable, attested, go Well, for me this time. Hopefully it will next time. All of us have friends that when they open their mouths, everybody listens. And sometimes we say oh, you know, I wish I could be like that. We think it's some innate capability that they may have. What's interesting is actually a lot of that comes not from who they are. But from the language. They use their variety of different ways to use language to communicate certainty or confidence. One of them is actually the language of tents. So if someone comes and they say, hey, the beach is amazing, rad and the beach was amazing, you're much more likely to want to go there in the future. And the reason why is that using the present tense makes the communicators seem more confident makes them seem more certain that we want to communicate confidence we want to persuade others by we got to remove those filler words, we use them because they're easy, it's a great crutch, we don't know what to say, we often say an arm or a Tobias brim, or we're figuring out what to say next. Pausing is usually much more effective, it's a good way to rather than fill the space with something that's not valuable, draw others attention in and give us a chance to think about what to say. Think about what it's like to be a teenager, you're in some sense, you're trying to define your identity, you're in a constant sense of uncertainty about your place in the world about your place in friendship network, what life is going to be like for you, you don't have a lot of control over your life. And if someone comes in and they're like, this is how it is, you're probably going to say no thanks. But at least sometimes once in a while, if that person is willing to be like, Look, you know, I had these challenges. I'm not completely certain about these things, but I'm trying to do my best. I'm trying to help you get where you want to go. You know, and obviously in some cases, you want to be certain right when you want to communicate that this is the way it should be. But in other cases, using a bit more uncertain language can increase that chance of social connection.
Andy Earle
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