Talking To Teens: Expert Tips for Parenting Teenagers

Andy Earle
Hey, it's Andy from talking to teens, it would mean the world to us. If you could leave us a five star review. reviews on Apple and Spotify help other parents find the show. And that helps us keep the lights on. Thanks for being a listener.

And here's the show. You You're listening to talking to teams, where we speak with leading experts from a variety of disciplines about the art and science of parenting teenagers. I'm your host, Andy Earle.

We're here today with Katherine Morgan Schafler talking about perfectionism, and how that plays out in parents, and teenagers. Katherine is a therapist, a writer, a speaker, a former on site therapist at Google, and she is the author of the book, The Perfectionists guide to losing control, a path to peace and power. We are speaking with Katherine today about the idea of a balance. We'll talk about what perfectionism actually is. And there's a difference between adaptive and maladaptive perfectionism, we'll talk about two simple questions, you can always ask yourself to determine whether you're striving in a maladaptive way or an adaptive way. We'll also talk about suicide. And the single most important question parents can ask that might save your child's life, and how increased levels of visibility in their school in their community and their family can actually cause teenagers to put more pressure on themselves and feel more stressed, we'll see why we often choose self punishment, instead of self compassion, and how we can teach our teenagers to be more compassionate towards themselves. We'll look at the importance of celebrating the process rather than just the milestones. And we'll see how we can give ourselves permission to feel more joy and pleasure in our lives. All that and more is coming up on the show today. Katherine, thank you so much for being here.

Katherine Morgan Schafler
Thanks for having me.

Andy Earle
This is exciting. I just finished reading your book, The perfectionist guide to losing control. It's jam packed with information and you have a framework for others different types. It sounds like something that you've been really thinking about for quite a long time. Yeah,

Katherine Morgan Schafler
I noticed a lot of patterns in my work. I'm a psychotherapist. And in looking to understand what these patterns are, and find the names and language to anchor, myself and my clients, and I couldn't find it. And so I decided, after doing a really deep dive in perfectionism research to begin to put language to those patterns myself, and

Andy Earle
really grant some super interesting points in the book just about even the concept of perfectionism, and how sort of really got me thinking just about what how we use this word, and what it really means and how it kind of gender this sort of applied differently.

Katherine Morgan Schafler
It is a highly gendered word. And it's something I didn't even realize until I got into the thick of the book, I mostly work with women. And what I was noticing was a lot of women were coming into my practice, these were really high achieving women who were very ambitious. And they were presenting with this, quote, unquote, problem of, you know, something's wrong with me, because I can't shut this part of myself off, when I'm supposed to this part of myself being, you know, your ambition, you're striving, you're sort of drive to progress in a way. And I can't achieve, again, quote, unquote, balance. And so I really heard that so many times. And it's one thing to hear a couple of echo it goes in a day from people that are sort of in the similar position. But it's another thing entirely for years to hear so many people in different clinical contexts, echoing the same sentiment. And those were women who felt like again, something was wrong with them and they weren't getting it right and other people understood something that they didn't understand and could I help them understand how to be more balanced?

Andy Earle
What does that even mean balance? Well,

Katherine Morgan Schafler
that's what I asked and when we got to the definition of what that means, what we uncovered is that we have stripped down the definition Know what it means to be balanced, which in its original context is about energetic equilibrium. Right? And do I feel like myself? And do I feel like, I am not just trying to be one part of me, but I'm an integrated whole. And what we have stripped that definition down to, is being good at being busy. So when you say, Oh, she's really balanced, what you mean is not, she's found her sweet spot of energetic equilibrium, what you mean is, you can give her a ton of tasks, and she will drop the ball. She's

Andy Earle
juggling so much stuff. Yeah, and

Katherine Morgan Schafler
she's picking up the kids on time and making dinner and getting the promotions she's so balanced, she's really found balance. And that's not what balance is balance has nothing to do with busyness.

Andy Earle
And almost died seems to have a connotation of like really performing well in like multiple areas of life or something like really having as good social life and family life and work life all firing on all cylinders at the same time or something like, yeah, that's balance.

Katherine Morgan Schafler
I'm so glad you brought that up, because that's a good point. And something I talked about in the book, which is our sense that we need to be performing well in all those arenas simultaneously. And that's what success is, thank you for saying that. Because some seasons are for incubating personally, and figuring out like, what do I even want, you know, like, what do I really like about myself and my friends and my family life, and we don't want to change and that takes time and introspection, and other seasons are for like, this is the season that I am going to, you know, run a 5k or you some other kind of more outside of yourself goal. And other seasons are for a lot of stuff all at once. And sometimes you just need to have seasons of recovery, you know, and so life is not static, it's always changing and fluid. And so you can't have this banner of success and have it mean the same thing all the time. Because that doesn't take into account the fact that you're a human being and you are constantly changing, the stuff around you is changing, and you need to adjust for that.

Andy Earle
It really strikes me too that if that's like what our definition is, or if we're striving towards this ideal of balance as this state where we've got all these kind of like plates spinning at the same time, and all these different areas of our life and like they're all kind of nicely kind of going together. And we're you know, getting to the gym all the time and doing all these things, then we're constantly going to be feeling out of balance, because that's, that's this like illusory thing that you might achieve for small periods now and then but life is always happening and kind of flowing in one direction or another. And it's going to leave you constantly feeling like not in equilibrium or kind of flickers, searching or needing something more.

Katherine Morgan Schafler
Exactly. I think a good general rule is if you're feeling out of balance, do less out more.

Andy Earle
One thing that you do in the book, which I love, is your kind of actually reframing perfectionism from sort of this thing you talked about all these words that we use in terms of like, I'm a recovering perfectionist, or, you know, I need to kind of cure my perfectionism and all these things that really sound really kind of clinical, or like this sort of model where perfectionism is this disease that we need to get rid of. But you talk about a lot of research in the book on adaptive versus maladaptive perfectionism. So what's the difference between that?

Katherine Morgan Schafler
So perfectionism is, in my view, is innate natural human impulse that all human beings feel right we have this incredible cognitive capacity, our brains can see reality in front of us. And we can also see an ideal in our mind. So we can imagine new improved or different versions of things in both directions so we can see things in a worse way and in a better way. And perfectionist are people who, more often than not, right, so we're talking about in a patterned way, see that gap between reality and the ideal, and they feel something actively inside of themselves. It's a compulsion to try to bridge the gap. Right, and healthy perfectionists are people who understand that the ideal isn't meant to be achieved. The ideal is meant to inspire An unhealthy perfectionists conflate achievement and inspiration or aspirational lives. And generally, there's two questions that you can ask yourself or people you care about to kind of keep your perfectionism in check and sort of take your emotional temperature. And that is how are you striving? And why are you striving. So if the how is I'm striving towards this goal, but I'm burning myself out or in disregarding my need for good quality friendships right now. Because I've got my eyes on the prize, and the prize is work and lads, what I'm going to do, and then after that's done, then I'll worry about connection and friendship and family and all that stuff. So if you're striving in a way that's causing you to suffer, or people around you to suffer, that's not healthy. Conversely, if you're striving in a way that gives you energy that makes you feel curious, that lights you up that feels good, that makes you want to share what you're learning and discovering with other people that's healthy. And then why are you striving? Are you striving because you think of getting the thing that you are trying to get is going to give you a feeling that you don't think you would get otherwise. So a lot of people don't feel worthy of a sense of peace or permission to relax, or a loving relationship, or a feeling of authority, unless they're making a lot of money or looking a certain way, or pleasing people around them. And so if the Y is to certify your worthiness to somebody else, or to prove to yourself that you're worthy, that's probably an unhealthy, maladaptive version of perfectionism.

Andy Earle
One thing I also really liked it in that same vein is how you kind of break down what even is perfect. And you talked about the word perfect, which is from the Latin for complete, and do so well. Is that important to know? Or what does that tell us about what perfect even is?

Katherine Morgan Schafler
I think that going back to the etymology of perfection helps expand our view of what perfectionist are really after, which is not flawlessness. And that was like the Whoa, moment that I had in my work and research and writing this book was, I got perfectionist this whole time, we're just trying to make everything flawless around them. And that's not the case at all. perfectionists are trying to create alignment with their inner and outer worlds. And when you're in a healthy space, you're aligned with your own sense of wholeness. So the word production comes from the Latin purpose there per complete emphasis there, too. So we're talking about something that's completely done. And we use the word perfection to describe completeness all the time. Like if you say, someone's a perfect stranger, for example, you're not saying they're a flawless stranger, you're saying their total stranger to me, I have no idea who they are. And so what I noticed in listening, is that when people described perfect moments, to me, they were never describing superficial material perfection. They were describing something internal. And oftentimes, they were describing this internal sense of connection to their whole, their wholeness and their worthiness, amidst like, chaos and a lot of imperfection. Like, oh, the date should have gotten so bad, it was raining, and then the restaurant was closed, and then this happened. And then that happened, but it was perfect. And what they're saying is like, it felt complete, I wouldn't have added any other thing to it. To make it better, because you couldn't you can't add to something that's already whole. And so I offer that identity for people have you already are perfect. You know, everyone tells people and women in particular, you are enough. And I'm like, that's kind of a shitty saying to people, right? Of like, What do you mean, you're enough?

Andy Earle
You're good enough? Yeah,

Katherine Morgan Schafler
you're fine. Like I don't look at my five year old daughter and say like, you're enough. I mean, I get the I get where the core of the message is coming from. But we look at our children. We look at nature, we look at art, we look at good music, we look at the people we're in love with. We look at everything around us and say, Oh, you're perfect. Your laugh is perfect. This song is perfect. The way that you gave that talk was perfect wouldn't change a thing you know, but we have such a hard time extending that sense of acceptance to ourselves. And what would it look like to say, you're not flawless, none of us are. And that doesn't matter. But you are a whole human being already. You don't have to do anything to earn your wholeness, you don't become more whole, when you learn to walk or talk or make people laugh or look a certain way, your whole already. And that means that you deserve as a human being as a birthright, access to all the joy, love, dignity, connection and freedom, that if you could imagine the most perfect, quote, unquote, idealized version of you that's accomplishing all this stuff, and doing all the things that you imagine doing in your head, the view that showing up right now, and that you deserve the same amount of joy, freedom, dignity, love and connection. That's what it means to understand yourself worth. Why were you pointing to yourself? Yeah, turning

Andy Earle
it inward? I think it's easy to see that perfection and others are, we look at the people around us. It's like, well, oh, yeah, I wouldn't change anything about you. But then we look at ourselves and see all these things you want to change or our own lives? And it's like, well, yeah, I need you know, if I only had this or that, or you talked in the book about how sometimes we look at other people and see how they're maybe more successful than us, or better at certain things than us or farther in their career, they're doing more attractive, they're more healthy or whatever. And we then kind of compare ourselves to that and say, Well, okay, well, obviously, that person is worthy of having, you know, whatever it is in their life, but implication of that you really

Katherine Morgan Schafler
did your homework here.

Andy Earle
Yeah, read the whole books before these things. So, but I just love that as a really powerful, I think, yeah,

Katherine Morgan Schafler
it will you what you're hitting on and again, thank you so much for bringing it up is that we don't register, our sense of worth or lack of worth, in a literal way in our minds are not like I don't believe. So what I'm going to do is work 12 hours, even though I'm really tired, and I should rest. Nobody actually toxic that themselves in their heads. What they say is, you know, the way this shows up in everyday life is like, Oh, well, of course, Andy has a podcast, I mean, so smart, and he can connect with people really easily. And so it makes sense that he would do that. And the subtext of that is, he is smarter than me, or he is more connected than me. And then the subtext under that is, he is worthy of more, you know, attention, love, accolades, whatever than I am, because I'm not that thing. So we're constantly judging. And when, you know, I talked about in the book, when we think of being judgey, we think of being haughty and superior more times, we're making downward judgments. So we're saying all these people are better than meat, they're more important than I am. And that is as judgmental as saying, Did you know that I am more important than you? Who are you to come to me and asked me the question, I'm more important, and we're very comfortable saying it's bad to be judgmental, in that haughty superiority sense, but we're very comfortable being judgmental, and we diminish ourselves and exalt others.

Andy Earle
Because that feels humble. That's good. You're just recognizing the awesomeness of other people, but kind of then in so doing, you're also you're overlooking the awesomeness in yourself or just your innate worthiness.

Katherine Morgan Schafler
Yeah, and humility doesn't require you to diminish yourself at all. It just requires you to appreciate the bigger picture. And that the fact that everyone has something to contribute, and everyone has a talent for something, and that we all need a lot of help if we want those talents and gifts to surface.

Andy Earle
You talk about suicide in the book. And I wonder why you went into that and how you think that relates to perfectionism? Well, I

Katherine Morgan Schafler
don't think we talked about suicide. nearly enough. We are in the red. We are in a crisis. It is a public health crisis and suicide rates have climbed, they continue to climb. They are particularly spiking among teen populations. People don't think children commit suicide. And that's not true. And suicide is the second leading cause of death in the United States for kids, aged 10. Two, I believe the stat from the CDC is to 35. But the point is, if we just talk more about what leads to One, two, thinking that ending their life is a solution to their problems, then we could take care of each other, so much better. And particularly with teens, in our minds, their minds, rather, are still growing, our social connections feel so weighted, and they are, you know, something that bothers me when people talk about teenagers is, Oh, they're so dramatic. And they're so they're just overreacting. And and they'll see that this isn't that important in five years? Teenagers don't think it is that important to them, right? They're not many adults, they're not supposed to have the same ability to emotionally regulate, that you do as an adult, right? And so we're trying to graft our reactions as an adult on to teens and saying a whole if I was slamming doors and doing all this stuff, well, that would be disrespectful, can you try to recognize that as also, somebody who's having a hard time regulating their anger, they don't know how to feel that. And so they're acting out, and maybe having other routes, in terms of expressing that anger would help them instead of just saying, You're so disrespectful, and shutting down what they're doing, which is signaling to you I am struggling, in some way. And with suicide, I think that this could be prevented with simple, not easy, but simple conversations. And one thing I regret not putting in the book, Andy is the life saving question, as I call it, and I referenced it in the book, but it didn't really make it clear that when you talk about suicide, which doesn't have to be one single conversation, it can be an ongoing conversation. The way to do that if you're a therapist, a parent, a friend, a lover, anybody is not to say, Have you ever thought about harming yourself? You want to speak very directly? Have you ever thought about ending your life? And just that slight shift in language signals to the person you're talking to? That you are prepared to have this

Andy Earle
conversation? Yeah, you can handle it, you can handle it, or inviting them to talk about it.

Katherine Morgan Schafler
And kids, you don't ask this question to teens expecting the first time you ask to be the point of engagement. That's not the purpose of asking the question. The purpose of asking the question is signaling to the person I'm here if you need to talk about this, because some thing that happens is that there's so much shame around feelings of ending your life that people don't discuss it. They don't know how common it is. They don't know that there are a lot of choices to make. They just don't have any sense of agency. And it's that lack of agency and connection that leads people to make these tragic choices which are avoidable.

Andy Earle
We're here today with Katherine Morgan Schafler talking about perfectionism, and how that plays out for parents and teenagers. And we're not done yet. Here's a look at what's coming up in the second half of the show.

Katherine Morgan Schafler
It's really hard actually to become some version of yourself that's not defined by your family and not defined by your friend set. You know, that is the whole task of emerging adolescence, which goes into your mid 20s. So it's a big job. So I understand why you signed teenagers simultaneously want to blend in and stand out at the same time. This was so obvious after I decided it, but it never occurred to me was I'm going to tell Abby, my daughter, what makes me most proud, because I think a lot of kids and particularly teens think that their parents care only about them getting into a good college, or getting good grades. And maybe you do care about that as a parent, but I'm sure that's the only thing you care about. And so being able to just say, you know, what makes me most proud of you is when you you know what I tell my daughter is the thing that makes me most proud is when you treat yourselves and others well. And so when I see her treat, you know, there was a little boy at the playground and he was leaving his truck and she picked up the truck and ran after him and gave it to him. I said, that's exactly what makes me so proud of you. You really thought of that boy, when we delay our sense of feeling good in the name of responsibility. What we're doing is denying our full selves the ability to show up in the room and You can't be your full self while you're punishing yourself. You can't be the kind of parent you would be if you were demonstrating compassion for yourself. You can't be the kind of employee or boss you want to be. You can't be the person for yourself that you want to be. If you're punishing yourself. I say in the book, it's like trying to get a massage while jogging like no version of it works with your parent, and your strategy is I told my kid that they need to be home and 11. And they're not. And now I'm just going to punish them without having a conversation about anything that might have led to that decision. Like, did you want to leave and not feel comfortable saying that? What made it so that you couldn't get home on time? Do you know Because oftentimes, kids want to do the right thing. And they can't advocate for themselves. They don't have a script, they don't have language. And oh, if we could only learn that stuff under the safety net of being at home, that would be so wonderful. But instead, parents say, this is so disrespectful, you're not doing what you should. Now you can't go out for two weeks. Okay, great. The kid doesn't learn anything. And they're just gonna sneak out now, because they're just avoiding the source of the punishment, which is you want

Andy Earle
to hear the full interview, sign up for a subscription today, you get access to all the interviews I've conducted, as well as new episodes, weeks before the general public. It's completely affordable and your subscription helps support the work we do here at talking to teens. Thanks for listening. I'll see you next time.