Ep 237: Visible and Invisible Differences
Andy: Hey, we're here today with Meg Zucker, talking about how to raise teens who are understanding and empathetic towards people with differences and how do you raise teens who have visible or invisible differences themselves. Meg was born with one finger on each hand, shortened forearms and one toe on each misshapen foot caused by a genetic condition called ectrodactyly. She would eventually pass this condition on to her two sons and, along with her husband, raise them and their adopted daughter who has her own invisible differences.
Meg is the founder and president of Don't Hide It, Flaunt It, a nonprofit with the mission of advancing understanding and mutual respect for people's differences. She is a lawyer and a managing director and she's the author of the new book, Born Extraordinary. Meg, thank you so much for coming on the show today.
Meg: So happy to be here. Thank you so much for having me.
Andy: Well, you have written quite an exceptional book about being born exceptional, what is being born extraordinary. Can you talk to me just a little bit about your journey to get here, to be writing this book and why you thought that you wanted to write a book or that this was things you wanted to share with the world?
Meg: Yeah, for sure. I was born with a genetic condition called ectrodactyly which just essentially means that, to the utter shock of my parents, I was born with one finger on each hand, shortened forearms and one toe on each foot. And in fact, it was something that was unprecedented. Certainly, in my immediate family, our extended family, it's not like we could point to anyone. And quite frankly, and I'm dating myself, back in the day, the doctors didn't even know what the label is. So, it's called ectrodactyly but they didn't even have a label for it back then. And it wasn't like my parents or even I could just do a little search on born with one finger, now what?
And so, they didn't have a guidebook and they really raised me in a way that empowered me, speaking of the word empowerment, to just live my life in my own version of normal, capable of doing anything and everything within my means and at least trying. So, in terms of that, I say now that, of course, we have the internet to do a search but sometimes feedback on the internet can be scary and it can be all over the place. And for me, my difference and condition did not end with me even though it started with me. I ended up having two of our three children share it. Our sons, Ethan and Charlie, have their own version of ectrodactyly and I say that because Ethan has one finger on each hand, two toes in each foot, Charlie has two fingers and two ... Let's just say that, combined, we have 18 digits. I'll let that sink in, so very different.
Quite frankly, I have a legal career that I embarked on and my focus and goal was to assimilate, I never really wanted to have any or draw attention to the way I was born. And in fact, even though I had studied voice and singing and I actually played trombone, but whether I was going to want to be a performer or even a teacher because I come from a long line of teachers, it was really interesting because I ... Well, I shouldn't say interesting. It was really sad because I didn't pursue things where I would be scared at because I was so tired of being scared at all my life.
So, in terms of what I did is I focused on my legal career and just figured that we would raise our children like my parents had raised me as I described and then our son, Ethan, was bullied on the playground when he was in first grade for being different. And once that happened, it really catapulted me into this new dimension of, well, you know what, maybe I do have something to share and that's when, and we can talk about that later, I started my nonprofit, we started doing all this programming in schools to help kids. And I should say this, help kids who look or feel different, to empower them, turn them from a something to a someone to their peers but then reaching all the rest that used to run up to me in classes saying, "Mrs. Zucker, I'm not different, not me." And I'm like, "Well, we all have our version of one finger on each hand to hide, don't we?"
So, that whole process kept rolling and I've always loved to write and I've written in a lot of magazines and newspapers and things like that. But I really thought a lot about the fact that, even when I had Ethan before Charlie, I wish I had a book, I wish I had something that a doctor could have told me. Now, I'm in a special circumstance, I actually was physically born like this but, even me, I wish a doctor could or someone could say, "Everything's going to be okay and here's your book, here's how you're going to get there." And so, that's why I decided to write it.
Andy: I love that and I think this could be such a powerful guide for parents and families who are raising kids who look different. And also, really just for all people because I found so much in this book that just resonated with me, with struggles that I've had in my life about feeling different. And I guess it's funny, you talk about those kids coming up to you saying, "Oh, I'm not different," and I think there's part of us that wants to just be normal so much and just wants to fit in but, at the same time, we all have things about us that are unique and that make us weird.
Meg: Yeah. It's interesting because the book, I've always said, has three primary audiences. The obvious one is for parents of kids that look different, physical differences and all that. The second layer, parents of kids with invisible differences and navigating that. And then the final, which really encompasses everyone, which is all of us that are trying to be empathetic and raise empathetic kids and that really is what it comes down to. And I think a lot of the insights that I provide for parents that are raising children with differences or disabilities, what's been really nice and rewarding in terms of the feedback that I've gotten from some early reading and readers is just that a parent that just wants a kid to be able to naturally and graciously and gracefully manage approaching and encountering others that are different. How best to do that and how can they do it and how can a parent support them in doing that.
Andy: That's something that really stuck out with me early in the book is you talk about pushing Ethan as a baby in Larchmont, New York in a stroller and this woman coming up to you and saying, "Oh, you're new here? Oh, well, don't worry, you're still young, there's wonderful special needs programs in the school's here. Don't worry." And I just think there's so much of these messages that, oh, wow, that looks bad, that looks hard. And I think this lady's trying to say something nice, really, but the way it comes out is, oh, wow, that's bad and ... I don't know, yeah.
Meg: Yeah. No, it's an interesting point what you're saying because there's another part of, and I think it's the same chapter, but there's that book What to Expect When You're Expecting and I mentioned it because a lot of people will, when you're pregnant, give you that book and say, "Here, read this chapter but don't go there because that's the scary stuff and you don't want to read about the things that could go wrong." And what I write about is, actually, when you're parenting baby or child that is either born different or becomes different, it says Born Extraordinary for the title of the book but, at the end of the day, really, it could happen along the way. Most people mean well, obviously, but what we represent to most people is what went wrong.
And when you see someone and something went wrong, take someone who has a family or a parent that dies and you don't know what to say because it's something that went wrong and people are very uncomfortable. I almost equate it in that same scenario that, thankfully, this is not a death, so maybe I'm being a little extreme but I am doing it on purpose to say I find, just being the recipient of it as a person and as a parent of children with blatant differences is, people don't know what to say so sometimes it's insert foot in mouth because they really are trying to. It's not that the intention is bad, it's just they're trying to navigate it.
I do a lot of forecasting and even categorizing certain types of behaviors in terms of what to expect of. I do that on purpose because I think it hopefully will both enlighten those parents in that first primary audience but then maybe have other people step back and think, "Gosh, which category do I fall in in terms of my reactions to a person that's different or a child that is?"
Andy: Yeah, so much of that really stuck out to me is why we use the words wrong, that it went wrong like I'm so sorry and, don't worry, it'll be okay that you should be worrying or that, wow, that seems really bad. And yeah, it really just got me thinking about that and I guess how should we respond when we see someone who's just has this obvious difference. You also talk in the book about how sometimes even offering to be helpful or offering to help can feel insulting because it's like, "Well, I can do that for myself and I don't need your help." So, it looks like, what do we do?
Meg: Yeah, it's good and mean. We should break it down and keep the help aside a little bit and only because there's two components to what you asked. First, what should we do? That suggests that you have to do something. In other words, any type of difference, people feel, if you learn about something and you're not sure what to do, I've always said, well, just follow that person's lead because, again, people are living in their own version of normal, capable of doing anything and everything in their means.
And so, we don't expect anyone to do anything and, in fact, I always laugh because, even though I was born so blatantly different, as are my children or two out of three of them, our daughter has ADHD and has her own invisible differences too, which I would tell you her nut allergy is more of a struggle for us than many things in our lives. But I think it's really important to just understand that I don't think about being different, it's just not on my mind. What's on my mind is what is on any other person or parent's mind in terms of your day-to-day or I'm hungry or, gosh, my kid didn't do well or did well on a test and now I'm feeling good or stressed. So, that's going on in my life. And then you get someone who encounters me and they're like, "Oh, my gosh. What do I do? What do I say?" and you're like, "What? Oh, yeah. That again."
So, to me, there's nothing to do per se except if you ... And this goes into the second layer of what you're talking about in terms of help. Look, for people that are physically different, I go through. In fact, there's an entire chapter called The Helping Hand and I did that on purpose and I wrote that on purpose because there's an irony there that those of us who parent children with whole differences in particular, we hope to raise them or should be raising, in my opinion, to just be incredibly independent and not overprotective and all that good stuff which is very hard but necessary for them to thrive. And yet, so we've raised them to feel like this and then the world swoops in, I think in my book I described it as Mighty Mouse as here I come to save the day experiences, where people are constantly trying to interfere so there's this almost dichotomy of that experience.
And so, in terms of the help, I also provide examples and, in this sense, helping the person that's different themselves. What do you do? Sometimes I need help but I'm having a pride moment where I don't feel like it, I feel a little not so great. Well, no one feels great all the time, and no one feels terrible all the time, hopefully. And so, in that sense, I always say take a breath. Just don't act first, don't have an immediate observation and say, "Okay, here I go." Because intentions are good but don't be Mighty Mouse, just take a breath. Or, be Mighty Mouse but take a breath before you are a Mighty Mouse and say, "Let me see if that person actually needs it."
Not to be creepy and staring at them but just because they're going to be doing one of two things. They're going to either handle and manage it, they're going to struggle a little bit but then they manage it or they're going to start looking around for help or they might walk away because they don't feel like it that day. They're like, "You know what? I couldn't open this water bottle and I just don't feel like asking." But any of these types of circumstances can happen and so, the observer, the person that's encountering this person, I always think in terms of the word dignity. What are you doing to interfere or support their sense of self, their level of dignity and that, to me, is super key. I hope that makes sense.
Andy: Yeah, yeah, I love that. You talk a lot in the book too about just learning how to deflect conversations or to just be talking about normal things. And also that, sometimes, when you're looking for help, one easy way in is to start up a conversation with someone nearby you and then just talk about normal things and then, "Oh, by the way, could you zip up my coat?" or whatever you need and, yeah.
Meg: Yes.
Andy: Makes total sense. It just makes me feel like also, yeah, part of an easy way to handle that situation is just chat, just-
Meg: Oh, my gosh, for sure. But then some parents try to go at it in a way, and maybe that's why it's helpful that I did write this book as a person that is physically different and parented, that I can easily see, and somehow my parents refrain from it, but easily see, well, doesn't everyone need help? And that's what they'll say to their kid, "Don't worry about it, everyone needs help, everyone does." But when they say that to their child, their child looks around and everyone isn't treated like the person that Mighty Mouse needs to rescue.
And so, they can say that but it's far more complicated than that and kids are smart, teens are struggling, it's all about that dignity. And by the way, speaking of, because I know your podcast is about teens, it's really about the sense of self. It's really strongly about getting and managing towards that, for sure, as they get older.
Andy: So, thinking about friendships, which is always really important for kids and teenagers, you talk in the book about changing your mind in terms of involving your kids in groups of other people who share similar differences to them. Why is that? Why did you change your mind on that and what's your opinion now?
Meg: And I'll say, whatever I say, it's going to end up extending to siblings too, siblings of kids that are different but that's important to note in a second. So, I talk about how I made this huge mistake and I'll give the story. I think I was on the Today Show or something and, afterwards, I got the slew of emails and one of it was from an organization called the Helping Hands Foundation. It's an incredible foundation, they're like, "Will you come and be our keynote speaker?" And I was really focusing on my nonprofit and I really didn't want it to be limited to just helping those that were limb different. Not to exclude, but a broader, I was trying to reach ... It's a good thing I wasn't a marketing major because I would've been an epic failure. I was supposed to have a target market focus and I was like, "I want to help everybody."
Andy: Everybody.
Meg: Exactly.
Andy: Yeah.
Meg: So, in this scenario, I speak to my husband John, who's my rock, and he's like, "Meg, what are you doing? You're basically saying you'll speak to anyone except people that are limb different?" I'm like, "Oh, my gosh, what have I done?" So, we go and I'm like, "Let's bring the kids," and they were little at that time. And in fact, that was the spark where I spoke to kids after I spoke there and those kids, I saw them and witnessed them really interacting with one another in a way that my sons didn't have that opportunity, I certainly didn't growing up. And in fact, instead of saying, "Hey, guys, let's spend the day here," the conference was in Boston and I rushed everyone out and we went and toured Boston. And I regret that so much because there's other organizations, very wonderful, safe organizations and communities that are around for them or for kids like them in any different space, not just limb difference.
But I started realizing that there's two things that need to happen, two dynamics. One is how do we achieve that level of dignity and sense of self and the realization that we don't nor should we ever have to do it alone. And so, as much as our parents want to help us when we're kids, for example, but there's not just ... I think of it as a piece of pie. It's not that the parents are the entire pie, there's also got to be that slice that contributes to, wait a minute, I actually, not only relate to these kids that are experiencing my experience, it could be a camp for diabetes, it could be anything, but I feel like myself with them, I can be myself, I can be my full self with them. And I have regrets because I realize that I didn't give that to my children, our sons in particular, which was regretful.
And so, this book that I've written, just as much as it is tips and tools and thoughts and all that stuff, oh, yeah, there's definitely and here's where I screwed up because I really do want people to learn. And it's ironic, goodness gracious, I physically have what my kids do. You would've thought or think that, gosh, she must have learned everything and then applied it to them. And then siblings of kids that are different, that's really important too because those kids ... I have an entire chapter called What About the Families and that is extension of communities for those kids.
Someone might have a sibling that has down syndrome and giving those kids an opportunity to be friends with other kids that have a sibling with that particular difference or disability. It's just such a wonderful reinforcement of their own sense of self and comfort that, you know what, I'm not alone in this.
Andy: Yeah, and just connecting with people who get you or feel like they understand what you're going through is so profound.
Meg: Exactly.
Andy: It seems like, in general, it's probably easy for siblings to feel like they're not getting as much attention as they deserve or something. Sometimes, when you have a child with, really, any kind of differences, then so much of the family energy can go towards them and their needs and, as a sibling, sometimes you can get, I don't know, overlooked a little bit.
Meg: Speaking of teenagers, so in this sibling’s chapter, I include a bunch of scenarios and even examples of teenagers, especially if the teenager is the older sibling to someone who has a social disability or invisible, it doesn't really matter. And things that I've learned along the way are, first, many of them want to be perfectionists because they see that their parents are navigating through something that is unique and different and maybe could be more burdensome depending on the family's scenario and circumstance. So, they push themselves so that they don't feel like they have to be another layer. On the other hand, that's unfair to them because they have their own needs and they deserve the attention and so forth.
So, I do write a lot about the importance of being in touch with them on that. I write about perfection or lack that nothing is perfect. In fact, I have that line from Moonstruck that snowflakes are perfect, the stars are perfect, not us, not us. And I think that extends to siblings, I really do. They have to understand that none of us are perfect and so all of those notions are really, not only important as a parent of a child that's different or disabled, but actually extending to the entire family.
Andy: One of the big themes and something you talk about a lot is curiosity. And I think it's how dealing with that and preparing kids for that curiosity that they're going to face from other people and I guess you talked a lot about how you prepared your kids for just the fact that people are going to be really curious about you. What do you recommend when it comes to that or how do you think about that now after all that you've experienced with this?
Meg: Yeah, it's a really great question and different things pop to my mind when people are asking things. But there's a point where I talk about I'm speaking to my son Charlie, our son Charlie, and we go to a playground and I put him on a swing and I use the swing analogy about how, when you're on your swing and when people are staring or asking questions or intruding, if you will, because they are intruding in the space of just living your own life. And I focus on say, "You can't stop them from doing it, it's like they're swinging." They're swinging in your direction and you can't stop someone else's swing in that sense.
So, he got sad, he is like, "What mom?" I'm like, "No, but you have the control of your own swing and what that means is you have the control of your own thoughts and you don't have to allow their swinging towards you to ... You don't have to pull it in, you don't have to absorb it, you don't have to let them take your own personal inner power away from you." So, the curiosity, also, there is normalcy to it and I think there's that other layer that I probably should mention which is it's better than stares. In fact, I wrote an article years ago in Parents Magazine that was all about how parents will whisk children away so that they won't embarrass them and be like, "Mom, did you see that? Da, da, da, da." "Come on." I can see them staring away from us always.
But the thing is that I really do continue to believe that let natural curiosity govern. So, curiosity, and that's part of it, you got to accept that. The one thing that's nice about allowing someone to be curious is just the human nature. Once we've got our answer, we can move on. You know what I mean? So, if they're curious, that means they ask and that means you get the chance to address it and move on. And so, that sense, it's a good thing and we welcome it much more than the whisperers and the stares and things like that where we continue to remain just a something instead someone as I was describing.
Andy: I think a theme that also sticks with me through all of this in the book is really how much of this is about them, it’s not about you and remembering that because it's so easy to internalize the way other people react towards us or the way other people treat us as it being about us. And something that I love from your Dignity chapter is you talk about turning things into games. Just like some little games you would play with your kids and how you would turn things into games that they were experiencing in their lives. What does that look like or how could we get in the mindset of turning things into games like that?
Meg: Well, it's interesting, and this is for young children, of course. Your teenage kid can be the best person to be a part of that because little kids love looking up to their older siblings and they're probably more fun at doing anything that's interactive. So, games, relating to dignity, the one that comes up, for example, and we call it a game but it is a game, it's like a head game. So, for example, when Ethan, and I wrote about this, our older son, was playing soccer and no one wanted to touch his hands. At the end of the game, everyone's like, "Good game," and whoever wins or loses, they all line up and pass each other to give a hand swat, I guess. And he's like, "Mom, kids don't want to touch me," and it was making him feel horrible and rightly so. You start to feel like a monster, like a freak.
And so, luckily, actually, my husband's father's first cousin was this renowned psychiatrist Paul Ekman and I got the chance to speak with him and work with him and he was always saying that's the best way is to introduce anything as part of a game or something that a child can participate in. And so, not to that soccer example which I cover in the book, I'm like, "Here you go, E," I'm like, "I guess that, for the next game, seven kids are going to avoid your hands and the rest will touch you." And he is like, "No, mom, I guess" ... And so, we turned it into a game for games. Every single time, right beforehand, it was just incredible because now he was empowered. It's like, "Okay, let's just ..."
And that's the theme in terms of forecasting. There's so much forecasting that I encourage to the extent that you can include your child as part of that and through some mechanism that involves them and they get to guess things in that game spirit then, after that, we laugh about it. So, it's no longer this vicious, horrible thing, even though, let's face it, it still sucks. But on the other hand, they've anticipated it, we can laugh about it, we can chuckle, we can see who won, you know what I mean, and things like that. So, that's what I mean by games.
Andy: Yeah, it's really touching and I think that it's so relatable, I think, that we take things so personally and anyways that we can just turn things into little games like that in our own head. I don't know. I see the use of this even just as an adult and I hear this with just people who are getting rejected for lots of things. It's like, "Oh, I saved all my rejection letters to see how many can I get," or whatever. And I don't know how much easier it is to persevere through something when you reframe it like that. It's just a little, "Oh, can I get a few more today or how many people can hang up on me today," or whatever.
Meg: 100%. It's the same idea. And actually, as I'm thinking about it, when people read this book that are in that third category, they're going to be like, "Oh, my gosh, I better tell my child that they better touch the hand of the kid like Ethan or whatever it is or inserting-
Andy: You better slap that hand.
Meg: But you know what? That's not going to accomplish anything. If anything, it will create resentment. So, I've never advocated that type of ... If, now, you're a parent of a child, now that these kids are doing something like that, that or the equivalent, then it's more just engaging with them in terms of, and this is in my last chapter which is really an anti-bullying chapter or taking the bully by the horns and bully, dash Y. But it's really important because kids that are different or disabled, generally speaking, hopefully they're not bullied but the thing that I decided to start that chapter in was what they need is friendship.
So, if you're the reprimanding parent, like, "You better touch that hand," they're not going to be friends with Ethan. They're thinking of him like it's a chore or he's annoyance. He didn't do anything but his parents are like ... It's like, "Make your bed." "I don't want to do that but, okay, I guess I have to," so it's not something enticing. So, I think that all the parents on the other side of the coin need to think in terms of, okay, well, how do I encourage, not just kindness, which in my mind is a good goal, but it's easier but how do I encourage friendship and that last chapter focuses on that topic.
Andy: We were talking earlier about just how there's these messages that keep coming at you that it's bad or that's so hard or, wow, that would really suck. And I wonder about, in the media, you have some things in the book about watching movies or TV shows or something and seeing representations of people with physical differences associated with, portrayed in problematic ways. And I wonder if you have any suggestions or you had some cool questions in the book that you say you like to go through with your kids after seeing something like that. What's your approach after seeing a representation in the media that's cringe or problematic to having those conversations with your kids?
Meg: Yeah, it is a great question and, really, it can depend on the age of the child or the teen, obviously. And by the way, which is, I think, essential and this is a conversation or a thought that any parent should have. In other words, if you are a parent whose kids aren't different or disabled in whatever those labels mean, anyway, these days, then know that those types of portrayals are out there. And if you notice it, you should think in terms of flagging it and saying, "You know what? I should probably have a discussion and hear from my own child." What did they think about that? Is that something that they thought about or would they.
Yeah, 100% because they may not have or they might have just assumed, a lot of people do, the storyline is truthful and sometimes it's not and so a lot of assumptions are made. And so, for the older kids, I think, that are teenagers, I think it's always good, if you see something, whether it's in the media or, quite frankly, a show or whatever, what do you think was the assumption made. And actually, I was just responding to an email, someone had written in an article, they asked me what I thought about and it was just a forum of about 10 young adults but they had very variety of, one was blind, one had alopecia, one had a wheelchair, one had CP and so forth.
And it's interesting because the article was written very thoughtfully but it was really all about their experience having CP, whatever. And one of the things that I always like to say is have you ever thought about that the person that you just read about, you didn't get to know anything about them, all you learned about was their difference or disability. That's what they're interviewed about. If someone else is interviewed, they're like, "So, what makes you click? Tell us about where are you from?" And I read these articles and they're not that. They're just like, "Okay, well, what do you think of the label disabled and, okay, now everyone's okay or not okay or whatever. Okay, now let's move into the topic of this."
And so, I think that's another layer of, I keep using the word layer, but really a way of thinking about the discussion points of, if you notice it, it's like why did that whole article have to be about how they accomplish it or how they're an inspiration or how they ... It's, okay, what else is about them that could have been really interesting for us to know about?
Andy: Something versus someone. I love that distinction that you make.
Meg: Yeah. Yes, exactly. And then, for the parents of kids that are different, yeah, I go through real engagement exercises depending on the age. There's certain movies for really young kids that are so brilliant like Nemo or Rudolph the red-nosed reindeer where little kids can see different elements of someone who feels different for whatever the circumstance but that's only as good as when they're really little. And then the next level is really focusing on different questions. I even had my kids write to the director in one of the films and say ... I think I wrote it. I think I asked some questions and we.
Andy: Okay, okay. Well, that's dope there. Yeah.
Meg: And it doesn't matter if you send it or not because you can but what you need to do is start giving them the seeds to have a voice. And that's really what it comes, you're planting those seeds for them and giving them that feeling, wait a minute, I have an opinion on this and I'm allowed to have an opinion. I don't have to just take it, I can think about it in the way I want to think about it.
Andy: You mentioned a moment ago about articles framing people with differences as inspirational. Talk to me about that. You go on a large rant about that in the book and I wonder, yeah, what your thoughts are on that.
Meg: Well, I like to say I have an evolved rant because a lot of people, certainly in the disability community, have told me they don't love that term. And maybe some do, maybe many do, but everyone has the right to feel they feel about a word or a label. But remember, if you're just living your life that's familiar to you, then telling you you're an inspiration for doing something as simple as putting fruit on the conveyor belt at the grocery store feels very belittling or, that's incredible, you can sign your receipt? Oh, my gosh. So, it can feel belittling. You're so inspirational because you can do that.
So, I used to really hate it, I was resentful of people's remarks and using that term. Then I end up talking about the fact that, at the end of the day, and my husband, John, who was not born physically different in any respect, except he does have three bottom teeth and not four, just calling that out. He's like, "But, Meg, you are different and maybe this is inspirational to people." And I then I started rejiggering, that's what I mean about an evolved rant and I'm like, "Well, you know what? If my doing something or my kid's doing something has the short kid jump a little higher in basketball or the person that's like, you know what? I didn't think I wanted to try that but why don't I do that, they're doing it."
And so, I like to use the word motivating instead of inspiring in some ways because that's really what it is. If what we're doing motivates someone else to be the best version of themselves, how cool is that? That's amazing. And so, I less care about that word anymore but replace it as that motivating thing and, gosh, I feel honored to know that, just by being ourselves, that we could inspire people to be that.
Andy: You really got me thinking about it a lot when you're talking about it in the book and that makes me think also just about attitude or outlook, I guess. Because to me, the more I just think through it, it feels like, well, if someone was having a really miserable attitude and they're in a wheelchair or something, then I wouldn't be like, "Wow, you're inspirational." But it's having a difference and also having a really good attitude or something that, I think, is where I could see that being like, well, that feels inspiring.
What we were talking about at the beginning in terms of it makes me feel like, wow, I should own my differences more and I should be more fearless and more free in just expressing who I am. I guess it's we all have differences but seeing someone whose differences are really obvious like that and who's having such a good attitude or living, really, in a way that's free is motivating.
Meg: Yeah. Well, look, this life of mine, just like everybody, we're all evolving. And so, when you encounter someone, what you don't know, that was my take a breath, just always in that. I was giving the example in a helping way of physical, something physical but it doesn't have to be physical. Take a breath because, just like anybody else, when we encounter people, we don't know their state of mental health, we don't know how they're doing which has nothing to do with the physical and so we need to reflect on that. And I'm not trying to thwart people from having conversations, I don't want this to be the opposite but people are like, "What do I say? What should I do?" I'm like, "What would you say to anybody?" and that's what you say and do.
Just treat it as you're having a conversation about something else because that person is a person, they're not an it. Back to that something versus someone. And then let natural conversations evolve.
And when that type of thing happens, what's really the most beautiful part about it, to your point, Andy, is that then other people start to be vulnerable too and they're like, "I never thought about it but I had X, Y, Z happen." Do you know what I mean? So, I think that that's the way. Sometimes I think all of this is people compartmentalize it as if these conversations are box conversations. And it is the difference between the initial encountering someone with not much to say except this is what I think I have to say to someone who's different versus this is a human being, compliment them, by the way.
I love your shoes, I love your hair. I love ... You know what I mean? Compliments go everywhere. Another thing is asking questions about themselves, and I don't mean their difference, everybody. That's how I know I've done so well in the work world of interviews because everyone loves to talk about themselves. So, when I'm in an interview like, "Oh, my God, you got that job," I'm like, "Yeah." He loved talking about himself.
Andy: Yeah, right.
Meg: Still in the same scheme of that. I shouldn't say scheme, but plane.
Andy: One of the really powerful sections of the book was when you include a bunch of letters that your son received after he did an article that went out to schools, a bunch of schools, and he talked about being bullied.
Meg: Yeah, he was featured in an article by Lauren Tarshis, yeah. She's a scholastic editor but she's a Near York Times award-winning author of I Survived but she wrote that article about him. Sorry to interrupt you. Yeah.
Andy: No, that was really amiss. So touching to see how so many other kids responded to his story and, I guess, it motivated them to want to respond to bullying differently in their own life or to stand up for their own differences. And I guess, yeah, that's a big takeaway for me from your whole book as well and hopefully for people listening and who go out and get a copy of the book which I highly recommend that they do.
Meg: Thank you so much, I really appreciate it. Yeah, I hope they do too and really enjoyed this conversation.
Andy: The book is called Born Extraordinary and you also do a nonprofit called Don't Hide It, Flaunt It which sounds like it does really amazing work.
Meg: Yeah. If people just go to megzucker.com, then it's easy to find out how someone gets the book as well as it links to Don't Hide It, Flaunt It, the nonprofit and all the work we do there too.
Andy: Wow, yeah. I highly encourage people to go check it out, engage further. We'll have some links and everything in the show notes to find more about that. And I'm just so grateful to you for taking your time to come on the show and share your story and your wisdom with our listeners. It's been really a pleasure speaking with you.
Meg: You, too. Thanks so much, I appreciate it too.
