Talking To Teens: Expert Tips for Parenting Teenagers

Andy: This was clearly a lot of work, this book. It's beautiful. The book is, Being Together: Recipes, Activities, and Advice from a Chef Dad and Psychologist Mom. I`t's beautifully illustrated and is packed with a lot of great stuff in here that clearly spent a lot of time putting together. What inspired it?

Caroline: What inspired it is my husband is a professional chef and I'm a psychologist. And even more important, we have three children, now ages six to 19. So the activities are really developmental. We call them young helpers to grown-up helpers. So young helpers are toddler and early school and then we have preteen and teen helpers and then grown-up helpers are grown-ups. So during the pandemic, my husband as a chef, was unemployed, as many people were, and it really was the most time that we had ever spent together because his schedule has always been pretty intense. And the book started, the idea started way before the pandemic, but the pandemic really, because we were together as the family so much, helped us think through how we could present recipes and these ideas in a way that could be helpful for parents and that were helpful for us too and helpful for kids.

Andy: I like it because it really does bring together the psychology of what your kids are going through and also the food component. And there's something about connecting over food, is so human and families, it's just something that we do. It's really natural and I think that's also something really powerful about what you've done her, is taking something that we're already doing together but really made it a lot more intentional. You're talking about how you can explore different issues with your kids through food and through the process of making different foods and have suggestions about not just, "Hey, add two cups of flour," but really sort of a deeper level, which is really cool. Did that just evolved naturally in your family from having your background in psychology and your husband's culinary background just melding together or where did that come from?

Caroline: That's a great question. I think it came from really just trying to figure things out as parents and just to be fully transparent. I am really not that good in the kitchen and I'm not that good of a chef. I needed some help and then we just started thinking about how our kids, and our two oldest are 17 and 19 now, they've always been in the kitchen and cooking and how that's been a way for us to connect with them. And now our youngest, he's six, he loves mixing and cooking and there's so much math in cooking that kids learn and so it really just was a way for us to think through what we were living and experiencing.

Andy: Obviously you found that these things that were so helpful for you and your family, you wanted to share them with other people. What have you heard from other families about using some of these recipes and activities and their families?

Caroline: What we've been hearing is that it's been really helpful for families to think about that this is not a book about getting it perfect. It's a book about the process and the experience. So I'm really glad you mentioned the illustrations and I appreciate your doing that. We intentionally didn't have photographs because photographs are beautiful. However, for this kind of book, it would suggest what you make has to look a certain way at the end of it. And in fact, some of the illustrations, it's like, "Let's show the mess in this." Life is messy and parenting is messy, and being a kid is messy. And so what we've been hearing is, "It's okay. You have permission to explore and make mistakes and not be perfect and learn from that."

Andy: Something you talk about in the book, which I thought was really cool, is called The Haven Model, which is hearing with no agenda, anticipating the moment. No validation, validating empathy and not jumping in to solve a problem. I like that a lot. Are these things that you would do in order or are these things you would do all at the same time?

Caroline: Sure. Well, I'm really glad that you mentioned that model that we talk about in the book and we put that in the chapter on meat and chicken recipes. When we think about meat and chicken, we think about that being a foundational kind of food that families eat. What parenting skill is foundational, especially for teens and preteens? And that skill is listening. And so the Haven Model is a model to really help us and encourage us to work on our listening skills. And I will be the first to say as a mom of two teens and a six year old, we're going to get it wrong sometimes.

Caroline: But it's that we're trying. And so for example, the first part of the model, hearing with no agenda is really about, oftentimes it's human nature, when our kids or someone's talking to us, we have an idea. So the example in the book is your teen is saying, "I want to take a gap year. This is really important to me." And you as a parent have your own agenda and you say, "Wait, that's not what we planned for. That's not what we've been working for. You've got good grades, you can get into great schools." Now that's the parent's agenda. And so what that's going to do is potentially create a disconnect between your teen's experience and what you're saying. And so it's hard to do because of course we have our own ideas, but hearing with no agenda is really just taking a step back to really hear that experience. So, "Tell me more about that. What's making you think you want to do the gap year?" And of course you can share your experiences, "Oh, I'm surprised, this feels like something different. I want to understand. I want to be curious and understand."

Andy: But the focus really is on understanding and just trying to make sure that you really hear them. And I love that intention, that clear intention is really powerful, I think. They can feel that.

Caroline: Yeah, and it's hard to do. So this framework is just to help remind us.

Andy: I think it is because so much of the time we're listening, but really our intention is really just that we're listening so that we can navigate the conversation to this other thing so we can move on to the point that we really want to make and talk about the thing that we really want to talk about. And so that is, I think, is one of the hardest things to do

Caroline: In doing that, and again, that's just human nature and we have our own ideas, but we miss these great opportunities to really hear where our kids are at and what their ideas are for themselves. And for teens, identity is just a key developmental task during adolescence and so hearing where your team is at can be really supporting that identity development.

Andy: And because it's changing so quickly that we have to be constantly tuned in. We can't assume that we know what they're feeling or thinking or how they're thinking about themselves or others because that's what it was six months ago. Cause what are they feeling now? It might be changing.

Caroline: Yeah, absolutely. And then your question about of the model, is this an order? Is this each point, does it need to come in an order? And I would say no, that these are just a toolkit that we can pull from in our communications.

Andy: When you're talking about validation, you talk about DBT, dialectical behavioral therapy.

Caroline: Yeah, validation is really used a lot in the DBT approach, which was developed by Marsha Linehan and validation can be tricky because you may not agree with something and this is what the DBT approach talks about. Your teen may say, "Oh, I'm so upset because I failed the exam." And you may know as a parent, "Well, you didn't study at all for the exam." So it's tricky. But the DBT approach helps us, I think, understand that complexity that you can validate, "It sounds hard and it sounds like you're upset about not getting the grade that you wanted and I also understand that maybe next time we can think about studying more." So it's supporting but tricky because you might not necessarily agree.

Andy: I see. That's the whole point of it, is being able to exist in that gray space where supporting but also not agreeing and how do you do that?

Caroline: And it's that two realities can both exist and both be correct in the sense that one's not more right than the other. Both experiences can exist.

Andy: And is that as simple as really just verbalizing both of those things that this isn't what you would hope or want, but that you really do support them in going through it and want to be your resource for them? What kind of language would you use, do you think, for situation like that?

Caroline: I think it's a great question and I think the language is to really try to speak to both experiences and validate both experiences and let both experiences exist. So maybe the language would be something identifying what those experiences are and then of course trying to have a conversation about the feelings around those experiences. How are you feeling that you're not happy with your test result or what is that like for you? So I think to open up the conversation to talk about feelings is another way we can use language to talk about those complicated situations.

Andy: Okay. Yeah. Getting to talk about how they feel about what happened.

Caroline: Absolutely.

Andy: That's what's powerful about all this, is that we're nuanced human beings and our emotions aren't black and white and a lot of times we do exist in that space between. And so that's really helpful to talk about.

Caroline: Yeah, and we talk about in the book how the kitchen is a space that can be really a convener and a connector for families. And so the second part of the model, the A, anticipating the moment, is really where parents, a.k.a. grown-up helpers, can just be around and be aware that, "My teen doesn't really want to talk to me, but maybe if I'm just here and something is on their mind, maybe it will organically come to the front of the conversation." And the kitchen is a great tool to help anticipate the moment.

Caroline: So one of the examples that we talk about in the book is my oldest started college last year and it was the summer right before her freshman year. It was August she was going to be leaving and she was making this chocolate banana nut bread for her grandfather. It's really good. She wanted to make enough to freeze so that every time we saw him we would bring one to him and say this was from her. It was very sweet, I'm not going to lie, we do have some frozen this year, same, we have some frozen chocolate banana nut bread in our...

Andy: We over shot a little bit you mean on the...

Caroline: Oh no, she made more this year. She did the same thing.

Andy: I see. Okay.

Caroline: I see what you're saying. That's funny. And she was doing it with her younger brother. They were cooking together and I was just around and just by being around, she was talking with her brother because he was going to miss her. And then we were talking about the process and that wasn't anything that was planned that didn't come out of, "How are you feeling about going to college?" It was just, "Oh, you're making chocolate banana nut bread."

Andy: One thing that you talk about in the book, that I thought was really cool, is how sometimes when our brains are in a little bit of a fog or we're feeling forgetful or our days aren't going how we wish they would, and you have a section here about how during adolescence, different parts of your brain, specifically the part that deals with emotion and thinking are still learning how to communicate with one another. And you say in the book that talking about it can bring relief, talking to a trusted grown-up helper or friend about what's upsetting you. So I was curious as that trusted grown-up helper or friend, what to think about for those kind of conversations.

Caroline: We have a lot of research now about brain development and our brains are developing until our mid twenties, 24, 25. And so the part for adolescents in the adolescent brain is also continuing to develop, is the connections in the brain around thinking and emotion. And so it can be really hard to make decisions. And the part of the book that talks about having one trusted grown-up helper that you can talk to, one trusted adult you can talk to, there's a lot of research that shows that that really supports resilience. That it's not the quantity of people, but it's the quality and that you have one person that you know can go to that that can provide an enormous sense of security and comfort.

Andy: As a teenager, sometimes feelings can be so overwhelming, there's a tendency to isolate alone. You might think no one understands you, no one understands where you're going through or experiencing and encouraging them to talk to someone, grown-up helper about what's upsetting them. So how can we facilitate a conversation like that if we feel like our teenager is, like you're saying, isolating and feeling down or alone?

Caroline: A context for this is that the pandemic, from data, that the pandemic led to an increase in depression and anxiety among youth that was 50% increase globally. And the pandemic, when we think about adolescent identity development and the importance of peers, this is the time when friends and friendships are so important. And then kids had to stay home and had to isolate at home to be safe. And now what I'm hearing from a lot of parents and teens is that it's great to be back at school, but it's also hard to be back at school because there was time lost in developing those social skills and developing those friendships. Some people talk about the social anxiety they have about interacting in the school or social anxiety experiences of weight gain during COVID just because we were at home so much and so people have feelings about that.

Caroline: But your question about, as parents, how can we of connect with our kids and of be aware of the isolation? And from this book's perspective, I would say that cooking together is a way to do that or eating together or the activities. So for instance, there's an apple cider recipe in there and one of the activities, it's really good and surprisingly easier to make than it sounds. You think, "Apple cider, that sounds really hard to make." It's surprisingly easier to make than you think. But one of the activities is, go to a farmer's market together and get apples or go to an apple orchard together to pick apples. That time together, whether it's in the car or on the subway or whatever transportation you use, can be a nice capsule, a nice way to get those conversations started. And sometimes our kids don't necessarily want to talk with us. You may know that by their body language, but they want us around. So it's okay just to be in a shared space together also.

Andy: And it doesn't mean that you failed if you didn't talk about something deep and have a huge breakthrough, cry in each other's arms or something. There is value to spending that time together.

Caroline: Yeah, absolutely. No failure at all. You are sharing the space, you're sharing the time and that creates a foundation for the next time that you're together and you're communicating without even saying it. And we talk about saying things without saying them, you're communicating that you are there. When there is a time that your teen wants to open up to you, you're there. You're ready.

Andy: I love that. Apple cider sounds good. It sounds like a fun weekend activity.

Caroline: It's a fun weekend activity. We are in apple picking season.

Andy: Now's a perfect time of year.

Caroline: Great time of the year. I've had so many important conversations in the car with my kids. Just, I'm driving and then just stuff comes up in the car so you can have whole conversation on your way to the apple orchard. Or if you don't have a car, going on the subway to the farmer's market or walking to your local farmer's market, there's lots of opportunity there for a conversation. Just being ready to have those conversations.